Sustained Reaction


Sustained Reaction Archive - Page 9

Archive Message Index

A note on Hermeneutics From: Lonnie Date: 11/24/99
quantum mechanics From: bishop Date: 11/24/99
Re: quantum mechanics From: Ahmo Date: 11/27/99
Re: quantum mechanics From: Lonnie Date: 11/30/99
Re: quantum mechanics From: Ahmo Date: 11/30/99
Re: quantum mechanics From: Thomas Date: 12/4/99
The New NA! (long post, ignore if you are ADD) From: Scott Date: 11/25/99
Re: The New NA! (long post, ignore if you are ADD) From: Theophilos Date: 11/25/99
Disappointed From: Andra Date: 11/25/99
Re: Disappointed From: Anonymous Date: 11/26/99
Re: Disappointed From: Daniel Lawton Date: 11/27/99
Re: Disappointed From: John L. Date: 11/27/99
Re: Disappointed From: Corey Donovan Date: 12/2/99
Re: Disappointed From: Adelina Cerritos Date: 11/27/99
Re: Disappointed From: JG Date: 12/1/99
Re: Disappointed From: Corey Date: 12/1/99
Re: Disappointed From: Anonymous Date: 12/1/99
Re: Disappointed From: Corey Donovan Date: 12/3/99
Re: Disappointed From: Corey Date: 12/2/99
Re: Disappointed From: Al, Adelina, Mickey, JG, Biff Date: 12/3/99
The New NA From: Bishop Date: 11/25/99
Re: The New NA From: Daniel Lawton Date: 11/27/99
Re: The New NA From: Lonnie Date: 12/6/99
Super Pussy From: erik grafstrom Date: 11/25/99
Re: Super Pussy From: Leonard Zimmerman Date: 11/25/99
Re: Super Pussy From: erik grafstrom Date: 11/25/99
Carlos really was a sorcerer (of the second type) From: Daniel Lawton Date: 11/27/99
Re: Carlos really was a sorcerer (of the second type) From: Ahmo Date: 11/28/99
Re: Carlos really was a sorcerer (of the second type) From: Daniel Lawton Date: 11/29/99
INFINITY SPEAKS From: A LOYAL FRIEND OF CARLOS Date: 11/27/99
Re: INFINITY SPEAKS From: Daniel Lawton Date: 11/27/99
Re: INFINITY SPEAKS From: Daniel Lawton Date: 11/29/99
Re: cognitive loops From: Leonard Zimmerman Date: 11/28/99
Re: cognitive loops From: Theophilos Date: 11/28/99
Re: cognitive loops From: diana Date: 11/28/99
Re: cognitive loops From: Leonard Zimmerman Date: 11/29/99
Re: cognitive loops From: Daniel Lawton Date: 11/29/99
Re: cognitive loops From: diana Date: 11/29/99
Re: cognitive loops From: Daniel Lawton Date: 11/29/99
Re: cognitive loops From: Daniel Lawton Date: 11/29/99
Re: cognitive loops From: Scott Date: 11/29/99
Re: cognitive loops From: Calixto Date: 11/30/99
Re: cognitive loops From: Neo Binedell Date: 12/2/99
tastes great-less filling tastes great-less filling! From: rd Date: 11/27/99
Julius and Grant From: Biff Date: 11/28/99
Re: Julius and Grant From: greggabi@aol.com Date: 12/7/99
Intent / New Practices and Ceremonies From: Aurelius Date: 11/28/99
Re: Intent / New Practices and Ceremonies From: greggabi@aol.com Date: 12/8/99
Witches Located! From: Mickey Date: 11/28/99
trash question for GG From: John L. Date: 12/1/99
Re: trash question for GG From: greggabi@aol.com Date: 12/2/99
Re: trash question for GG From: Daniel Lawton Date: 12/2/99
Re: trash question for GG From: greggabi@aol.com Date: 12/3/99

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A note on Hermeneutics
From: Lonnie
Date: 11/24/99

Someone a while back mentioned hermeneutics in the context of supporting Castaneda's ideas. Jut thought I'd post some thoughts on the subject.

Hermeneutics is the branch of continental philosophy that deals with the understanding and interpretation of texts. Hermeneutics attempts to establish principles that (ideally) guarantee or (at least) render highly likely that we can retrieve the intended meaning from a given text. This is a real problem because, as Jacques Derrida has gone to tortuous extremes to show, the intended meaning is never present to the reader of a given text. It has to be recreated using whatever means the reader may have of guessing at what the author must have meant.

Derrida goes even further, asserting that the neurological processes that underly what we experience as bare perception and that are "presented" to our awareness via a multipliciy of levels of encoding and decoding are faced with an even more difficult hermeneutic problem than someone who merely wishes to translate, say, the bible into English from Hebrew and Aramaic. "Energy as it flows" presents the organism with a chaotic blend of perceivable marks (potential distinctions or traces). Making a world out of this chaos is a pretty mysterious and miraculous and completely ordinary affair--i.e., we do it constantly, day in and day out.

Interestingly, this is where Castaneda gets the leverage for his assertion that we don't "see" "energy as it flows". This is interesting on two counts: (1) Castaneda's statements regarding the "French Deconstructionists" were pretty disparaging. This is interesting but not surprising--CC disparaged a great many quite plausible sources for his own ideas. (2) Having noted that energy as it flows presents us with no necessary structure (i.e., world), he goes on to describe one of his own fevered devising complete with a universe creating predator and shadowy energy vampires--shades of H.P.Lovecraft!

But wait. In spite of the extreme disorder of the dancing wavefronts, the blooming buzzing confusion celebrated by Plato and Nagarjuna alike, there is a huge volume of evidence that there is structure to the world, and that there are objects "out there" that are as real (or unreal) as ourselves. Somehow our puny nervous systems manage to give us not just a good interpretation, but actually the best interpretation (for our purposes), the best representation of the world based on as yet unknown principles. But those principles might just be physical rather than hermeneutic. More likely the brain and nervous system use both types.

By physical principle I mean making use of some physical process to model a formal problem. If you think of the difference between patterns predicted by a perceptual model or "object hypothesis" and those actually present to one's eyes at a given moment, then you can think of that difference as a function. Then the task of resolving the energetic flux into an image becomes formally the same as finding a global minimum of the difference function.

One may easily show that a quantum system with a potential corresponding to such a function may be rapidly brought to the ground state by cooling where the ground state is not localized, followed by adiabatic cooling so that the ground state becomes substantially localized in the well containing the global minimum.

By hermeneutic principle, I mean a set of heuristic guidelines for deciding among a number of possible object models based on a number of contextual factors.

In short, there are probably energetic factors, many of them quantum mechanical in nature, that aid the nervous system in presenting awareness with the best interpretation of the objective causes of a moment's slice of energetic flux.

The real irony is that if you let go of Castaneda the real mystery returns. Castaneda went on and on about the world's unfathomable mystery all the while dishing out all kinds of half-baked explanations. Let go of Castaneda and the true mystery, all the things you really don't know, are staring you in the face. How exciting.

How about replacing "having to believe" with not having to believe--the not doing of the TBs.

In advance response to the accusations that I'm obsessed with the "European scientific paradigm", or words to that effect, I'll make a prediction. If you can take any human from any culture and throw them over a cliff like the one described in Tales of Power and not have them splash on the rocks below--I'll retract everything written here.

Lonnie "hoping no one actually attempts the experiment"

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Re: So is there an alternate reality or not?
From: Lonnie
Date: 12/6/99

Myrddin writes:

"I think the proof is in the question. Our reality is obviously reletive if you can "choose" wich way you "want" to "believe" in things."

Lonnie:

Ideas and beliefs are relative. Experience is to some extent relative. Our bodies and nervous systems, however, are all subject to the same discipline, the twin disciplines of perception and survival. Not to perceive is not to survive. Not to perceive certain important "energetic facts" is not to survive. Not to perceive a large truck bearing down on you when you are crossing the street is to submit your name for the archives of the Darwin awards. Not much relativity about that. I assert that it is not the case that not to perceive the truck is to escape its effects.

Further, to escape the effects of the truck by crossing into another world, a truly separate reality, would, if possible, require more than achieving inner silence in order to stop the inner dialogue and thereby stop "interpreting the world".

Myrddin:

"All of realities are obviously fully seperate. It just so happens that we were pressured into a "common" sence."

Lonnie:

If all our individual realities were fully separate we couldn't communicate or be aware of one another in any way. If they were identical, we'd all be the same person. I agree that there is lots pressure from many sources to agree with all sorts of ways of interpreting the world. On the other hand, do you experience pressure to perceive the color red as such?

Myrddin:

So we all have indevigual worlds but at the same time we share most of the caricteristics of one way of looking at it. the techniques that we have learned such as stalking our selves/not doing, dreaming and the recapitualation are ways of widening the reletive stand point of our selves. But contained in what carlos wrote is the most important thing not to do, and that is continuing to interprit the world. Think about it, when we were babeys, we did not have language to interprit everything. we just percieved. So to me silance is the most important part of widening our reletivities, because it gives us a center as we realise the horrable truth, about our selves. there is no base for us against reletivity exept for denial, or to pay such stricked attention to the self as to not ever notice. And that is what self importance realy is.

Lonnie:

The "horrible" truth about ourselves is that they are contingent and will not last. Thinking that you can believe that truth out of existence is what self-importance really is.

Lonnie

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quantum mechanics
From: bishop
Date: 11/24/99

Someone earlier posted questions regarding the connection between quantum mechanics and shamanism. Due to my lack of mathematical skills and intelligence in general, I tend to rely on layman-level texts to get my info. I just read "The Elegant Universe" which deals primarily with "superstring theory", the theory which postulates that the base particles of the universe are not point-particles, but Planck-length strings that create both energy and matter through their vibrational "music" i.e., different vibrational patterns correspond to the variety of energy and matter in the universe. The tone of the book exited me as much as the substance because your able to witness something rare in the scientific community, a sense of awe and wonderment. Supposedly this theory is part of a grander theory, mysteriously called "M-theory" which is believed to be the final Grand Unified Theory. I would like to thank Ahmo for the input per hermeneutics.

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Re: quantum mechanics
From: Ahmo
Date: 11/27/99

I love science, it's great, but it can't solve anything and there are limits even to the questions it can ask. The problem I have with it is that it has a be-all end-all feel to it, a self proclaimed objectivity that denies its role in the construction of the results. Also science takes alot of time, the quantum mechanics stuff matches hindu/buddhist descriptions of reality which pre date it by thousands of years. one of my favorite examples is, that Australian aboriginals have stories of a time when giant wombats and Kangaroos roamed australia. This was just considered legend by white australians until about 3-5 years ago they discovered prehistoric giant wombat and kangaroo bones. Aboriginals had their certainty from their oral history if not from other methods (they are not academically recognized to have been around in Australia as far back as the bones date, but they assert that they have always been in Australia). My point is, Science is useful but it will be a long wait if we require that they verify our intuitive (for lack of a better word) knowledge before we feel confident enough to use it. thats all.

Ahmo

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Re: quantum mechanics
From: Lonnie
Date: 11/30/99

Ahmo wrote:

I love science, it's great, but it can't solve anything and there are limits even to the questions it can ask. The problem I have with it is that it has a be-all end-all feel to it, a self proclaimed objectivity that denies its role in the construction of the results. Also science takes alot of time, the quantum mechanics stuff matches hindu/buddhist descriptions of reality which pre date it by thousands of years. one of my favorite examples is, that Australian aboriginals have stories of a time when giant wombats and Kangaroos roamed australia. This was just considered legend by white australians until about 3-5 years ago they discovered prehistoric giant wombat and kangaroo bones. Aboriginals had their certainty from their oral history if not from other methods (they are not academically recognized to have been around in Australia as far back as the bones date, but they assert that they have always been in Australia). My point is, Science is useful but it will be a long wait if we require that they verify our intuitive (for lack of a better word) knowledge before we feel confident enough to use it. thats all.

I respond:

If you have knowledge that works for you, "science" doesn't enter into the discussion. Personally, I would take the aboriginal accounts of giant wombats, etc. as evidence that at some time in the past, the ancestors of the aborigines coexisted with the giant wombats. The fact that no one has found giant wombat remains that are as recent as the dates suggested by current theories about the antiquity of human habitation in australia does not establish that giant wombats weren't around when the original Australians arrived. You have to distinguish between the prejudices of humans, even scientists, and science.

And guess what? There's no such thing as "Science". That is, the term has no objective referent. Loosely, the term refers to a collection of fields of inquiry that are loosely connected by similar methodologies and by a commitment to empirical evidence (granted that what is accepted as empirical evidence is sometimes theoretically influenced).

Saying that science "can't solve anything" is a bit like saying the color yellow can't dig a hole.

So far, discoveries in various disciplines appear to be consistent with certain Buddhist predictions: e.g., a substantial unchanging self is not evident, a substantial, unchanging deity is not evident, a substantial unchanging substance is not evident, things appear to arise depending on complex causes and conditions--when those causes and conditions change, the phenomenon vanishes...etc.

Nevertheless, there are certain details about the universe that the Buddha (if he knew them) didn't deem relevant to his purposes and so never revealed. Thus we have workable explanations for the physical behavior of phenomena ranging from electrons and photons to stars and galaxies (for one example).

So I wouldn't go so far as to say that the Buddhists, Vedantists, or aborigines knew thousands of years ago everything we have discovered recently. It's possible that they knew more than we give them credit for. It's also well known that certain technologies possessed by past cultures have been lost. A friend of mine who teaches sculpture and jewelry making tells me that certain types of metal work, certain effects, that people achieved thousands of years ago can't be replicated today.

The be-all and end-all feel, or "self-proclaimed" objectivity that you mention may be part of the hype surrounding "science" and may even be believed by some scientists. Others are more humble. Same as any other collection of humans.

Your personal feelings are one thing. If you have a better way of probing the universe while guarding oneself against (pardon the bluntness) liars and incompetents, let's hear it.

The methodology of the sciences amounts to a highly refined and precise form of trial and error.

That's all. It's interesting that so many religiously inclined people want to characterize that as another religion.

Lonnie

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Re: quantum mechanics
From: Ahmo
Date: 11/30/99

Lonnie, thanks for your reply, I loved the 'color yellow can't dig a hole' bit. I was not addressing that the aboriginals coexisted with giant wombats, just that they 'knew' in their way much longer than science, and the archaeologists I know who deal with the remains recognize that they have much to learn from the Aboriginals, they just can't publish it until it's provable in western scientific terms, naturally. as for the antiquity of the Aboriginals, well, yes the 'offical' or Western scientificly acceptable dates don't go that far back, but these are open to much debate among scientists, some even say 120,000 b.p., but these are 'scientists, the Aboriginals will tell you that they never 'arrived' but that they have always been in australia, but we give no credence nor respeck because of an attitude of "what do black-fellas know" disguised under politically 'correct' scientific discourse. Also, the Aboriginal people (from the reports that I have heard) didn't say that they coexisted with them (as an archaeologist would say had he found the bones together, etc.) But that they know from their stories that the giant wombats roamed australia, maybe they have their own 'diggers', they surely could have recognized the bones of a wombat blindfolded. A note on Aboriginal story telling, They have a tradition which makes it an Oral history, that cuts down alteration over time to a surprising minimum. The point of my post was in response to a few posts that seemed to me to want scientific backing before they are willing to use knowledge of things not yet scientifically sound. Maybe I misunderstood, but the point was, if you wait for science to catch up, you better be immortal! yes science has precise methodology and I use it to explore, just as I use many other avenues to explore, and I don't attach any weight to science except that it is acepted by people as blindly as faith in church. The hindu/buddhist thing was just another example, not an invitation to drop your microscope and become a hare krishna. YEs Science does assume objectivity, it tauts it's methods and results as a-cultural, which works (in a way) in classical sciences, but has failed miserably in the social sciences (If I may be so bold) which shows that it is not the be all end all method which will eventually understand everything. Electrons and sub-atomic particles, and all science for that matter, are ideas which we superimpose on phenomena to see if it matches up, and that allows us to have a model to manipulate some of the factors of our existence. But this is not FACT! this is theory, as valid as any mythology, (more so to us, because it is OURS) and dogmatically clinging to it is just as sad as any dogmatic belief, even the one that science is inadequate, if dogmatic. newtonian physics enabled some of the greatest advances in the history of western man, but it was wrong in many respects, yet many swore by it, swore it was 'TRUTH' I feel it is extremely presumptuous and arrogant to believe that we have got it all figured out, or that we can figure it all out as it is. We can only get to it how we see it, and it is difficult to see far through a microscope. By the way, many of these criticisms are from 'scientists' so that makes me a hypocrite and our beloved science like the color yellow, it can't do everything. I just hoped to give people a bit of courage to stray a bit from science in the pursuit of the unknown, for there are other ways that are not secondary to science. By the way, I am not 'religiously minded' I don't believe in creationism or anything, it is just that science has enjoyed the privilege of being king of the hill, along with the white man, and I am but one of the hearlds announcing that the reign is over.

thanks again for the reply, I love it when I'm challenged.

Ahmo

By the way I wont have access to a Computer for a while, and for the next month it'll be a bit sporadic, so I appologize if I can't reply as soon as I would like to, it is in no way a loss of interest.

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Re: quantum mechanics
From: Thomas
Date: 12/4/99

People need to becarefull when they use the word "sciences." It can be quite decieving. Chemistry and Biology are somewhat similar, but physics is a completely different subject. What unites them is emperical evidence gained through experiments.

Chemistry and Biology are extreamly observation oriented, and use qualitative reasoning to explain those observations. They gain knoledge only by observation of relationships and systems. Because of this, the true nature of origin of existance, and predictable archiology will never be realized in these methods, I consider using Chemistry, and Biology in this way is psuedo-science. Current biology and chemistry centers on the "now". They use statistics, and physics to gain qualitative understanding how systems work.

Physisits on the other hand, have been able to find mathmatical relationships to describe natural physical events in terms of predictable fources. Qualitative and statistical reasoning doesn't satisfy them, they need to calculate! Math never totaly lies, however, it can tell half truths. This is becauce complex functions of infinate magnitude may converge or apear like to different functions, in simple situations. That is the problem between partical physics and cosmology. The true "function" has different appearences at different scales.

Even newtonian physics has truth at near earth aplications.

Quantum physics has advanced the sciences greately. The extreamely valuable MRI's for example wouldn't exist without quantum physics.

Many people don't understand science because it has become known as an atheist's religion. I personally marvel at science. Instead of looking at it as a proof that God doesn't exist, I look at its complexity see that God can be the only explination for its existance.

Many religions have fundemental connections, however, they assert many diferent theorys, methods, and beliefs, eg. look at all the teachings for Obe's and (voodo's loa rituals may have connections to the christian speaking in toungs). If someone did a comparitive study to see why such differences are able to manifest the same results, a new science derived from parapsychology may arise.

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The New NA! (long post, ignore if you are ADD)
From: Scott
Date: 11/25/99

(Standing up...) Hi, my name's Scott and I'm a recovering nagualist.

Well, there certainly is a lot of information to process and absorb here, and I'm probably in shock to some degree, but here goes nuthin, I’M TESTIFYIN!I did the workshops, bought the videos and books and the cute teflon balls etc. (Hey man, they’ll be collector’s items some day!) Like many here, I had my moments of being a TB, though, not living in LA I had quite a bit of distance from the whole 'scene', which was probably a good thing for me. It's interesting to note that the level of people's rage seems to be proportionate to their involvement/connection with CC and Cleargreen. I guess that's not surprising.When I was at the Long Beach workshop, (my first) I definitely got a cultish vibe. We were mostly in crappy sweat pants and T-shirts, I noticed, whereas Cleargreen and Co. had spiffy outfits and were very well groomed. I definitely had the sense of a rich, LA elite. I remember Nyei giving me a frustrated expression when I wasn't doing a movement just perfectly as if she were saying, 'Do it RIGHT you Idiot!' Of course, this is my own self-importance talking, my flyers mind...

At the same time, the workshop overall had a powerful and mysterious effect on me for some time after, and I guess I'm not totally ready to throw out the baby with the bathwater. I would say my position is moderate in all this: I don't feel I was ever completely conned, so I'm not that angry (though I'm not that surprised either) and I have had some powerful experiences while traversing this path which I can't completely rationalize away.

One of the underlying themes of the SA dialogue seems to be, for lack of a better term, the 'Hypnotic Suggestion Theory'. I have difficulty with this, because for myself, I find it hard to believe that my experiences with Tensegrity, for example, were simply the result of some kind of group hypnosis. I could imagine that if I were a student of Castaneda and saw him regularly that that might be the case but it wasn’t. The books never really touched on Tensegrity, at least the earlier ones, so knowledge I received about the passes was mainly from the workshops at the time, and from ordering the westwood pamphlet.My experiences with the passes confirmed some of what Castaneda talked about. They certainly altered my consciousness in various ways and I find their effect quite mysterious at times and very subtle. I find it hard to buy that it was just a placebo effect, simply because I have not been that suggestible at any other time in my life. I did these weird movements with my body, and I felt these strange effects like this guy in this book talked about, what’s up with that? To me this is different than say, a fundamentalist Xtian spending a lifetime absorbing and re-absorbing the literature and the rituals, who ends up having a vision of the virgin mary or something. There is a lot more conditioning and en-trancing going on in that example compared to my personal experience of Tensegrity, specifically.At the same time, when I entered into the Toltec path I had already formed some questions as to the nature of belief and to what degree it structures our sense of reality. The guru dude Adi Da made a comment that whatever path you take you will get the results. i.e. if you’re doing kundalini yoga you’ll have a kundalini experience, if you’re into Shamanism you’ll have visions with animals etc.I guess today I would call myself a Magical Agnostic, meaning that I’m definitely not a scientific materialist (cause-and effect universe and so on) so my universe is definitely magical, but I’m agnostic in the sense that I can’t quite commit to a particular belief system or ‘reality tunnel?as RAW calls them. Chaos Magicians use belief systems as means to an end rather than ends in themselves, because of the temporary power they can afford. Personally, I like that and I think that position allows for a certain amount of detachment when looking at the whole Castaneda fiasco. If experiences of the second attention are purely a matter of our belief talking back to us, what happens when it talks all the way back to us and we vanish into thin air? If my power of belief can make that happen then LET’S DO IT BABY, to quote a phrase.On a different note, I am surprised by Corey’s use of the psychiatric model, with use of terms such as NPD etc. I guess I wonder if that isn’t a knee jerk reaction brought on by all of the (totally understandable) feelings of anger, disappointment etc. I say that because the psychiatric model is based on science and is totally materialist, and I don’t quite understand how someone who quite recently entertained some fairly out-there notions is now buying into the belief system of chemical imbalances and personality disorders. None of that is meant as a criticism, BTW, I t just makes me go, ‘say what?’I’d like to suggest a book: Dennis Wier’s "Trance: from Magic to Technology? The url is: http://www.trance.chHe has come up with a new model for trance, which in his terms covers everything from hypnosis to meditation and driving a car. The jist of it is that trances are created by loops of thought objects (like tenets for example) which over time involves part of our consciousness disassociating. Once we dissociate we are in a trance, which means that some aspects of ourselves may be disabled/impaired, like for instance, our judgement. Say, you get a new job and have a new route to drive from home. On the first two days you need to pay attention because you’re not sure how to get to your new job, but by the third day you know the route so well you don’t have to pay attention at all, in fact you probably find yourself daydreaming. It’s at this point that you have gone into a trance. Of course, you were already in a slight trance anyway by virtue of driving your car. And so on. It’s a model. And a model is a model is a model, but, it has given me a lot of insight and food for thought and I think it may be helpful for others here. One of the things he talks about is charismatic trances of world leaders and gurus which is obviously relevant.Change of subject:

The thought of the suicides makes me feel sick to my stomach, I sincerely hope that is not what happened, regardless of how ethically ambiguous their actions may have been. I say that because of lot of the info here is anecdotal and ultimately I cannot verify it 100% or disprove it. If the worst scenario is true, then my guess is that FD CT and TA were duped like all the rest of us, I can have compassion for them, at least in this moment.

It certainly raises some questions as to why? Why would Castaneda do this? Was he crazy? Was he a sociopath? Was he money and power hungry? Was he well meaning but senile? Was he a poet trapped in a huckster’s body? I’d like to get some theories on this. One thing I found interesting about the will is the part about money for tuition for some of the disciples. I took that as a very ‘affectionate?gesture (whoops, I’m walking the jargon tightrope here!)In ending, and I know it’s time (thanks for listening if you made it this far!) I’d like to thank Corey and friends for making this site available, it’s had a major impact on me.Scott

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Re: The New NA! (long post, ignore if you are ADD)
From: Theophilos
Date: 11/25/99

It is nice to read this open-minded post. What struck me the most was this particular line: (It's interesting to note that the level of people's rage seems to be proportionate to their involvement/connection with CC and Cleargreen. I guess that's not surprising. )

This is not an attack on anyone.

Why is it, as Scott points out, that most of the rage comes from those who appeared to have connections, or at least were much closer to Cleargreen and the Sunday group? The tone of some posts appears to be more in line with personal vendetta more than anything.

We have all read the "enquiring minds want to know" scoop, and yet most people who have studied Castaneda and pursue abstract knowledge have remained to a large degree open and practical in spite of the disturbing information available here.

Posts like the one Scott has just made reflects that most who visit this web site are not lunatics but intelligent, serious people who will continue to move towards enlightenment with honest hard work, which is really the only way.

For those of us who were hoping that through Castaneda or Cleargreen we were going to become Superstars, the joke is on us. If we were sincere, we would admit that this web site should have been created years before.

t

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Disappointed
From: Andra
Date: 11/25/99

I've been reading for a year Castaneda's books. From the very beginning I was very interested about his way of knowledge which seams to me so exciting and in the same time similar with other cultures. I did not know anything about Cleargreen and all this stuff - as I was living on another planet- until some days ago. In the last days I was searching desperately after information and news about Castaneda. And my conclusion in not a very good one and disappointed me a lot. I think that the silence after Castaneda's death was for money reasons and because they did not want to say that Castaneda died as a common person . On the other hand, maybe because I've read only 8 Castaneda's books, I did not understand what happened with the "Sisters" and Genaro's group ("The Eagle Gift"). I am in an uncertain mood: I am disappointed about Castaneda's life but in the same time I am still very curious about his books.

Andra

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Re: Disappointed
From:
Date: 11/26/99

I would be careful to accept what these books say literally. I would be careful to accept what the Sustained Action people say also. Carlos Castaneda was exposed to information that is very useful. Concentrate on the information. It did not belong or emanate from him. It is very useful.

The Sustained action list is made up of some people who experienced a great deal of emotional hurt that surfaced after Carlos Castaneda died. These hurtful feelings have to do more with their relationship to other people (possibly parents who they never felt recognized by) than by Carlos Castaneda.

The motivation behind Sustained Action list is not good or useful. It calls for the destruction of Castaneda as a personality. He should not be destroyed. Why do that to anyone who you can simply walk away from. The problem for Dan and Corey is they are still emotionally dependent on Carlos Castaneda and they feel the only way to get rid of this feeling (Which is truly uncomfortable) is to destroy him. A better idea is to stop thinking about him and remove yourselves from any contact with his "legacy". Close down this site; get involved in other activities for a period of years that have nothing to do with him (that’s how long it will take). Don’t talk to other people who have been involved with him. Ban any self-involvement with gazing or dreaming and all the other things you may have learned or imagined that you have learned from him. That’s how you destroy him. You will not want to do this because you will feel you are nothing without having him to battle. You will have to feel like nothing until you can get involved in something else. Please don’t imagine yourself to be exemplary heroes trying to help others.Human beings do not want to change. The only way to change them definitively is through trickery. It requires an extraordinary person. Extraordinary organically and then with correspondingly strong, impactfull social experiences. They have to be born with an extraordinary well-developed nervous system. They have to be able to think and highly sensitive to feeling. It could very well be a "peasant" as it could be a Ph.D.

That person has to have the best possible intentions if they are going to be of help to someone else. That's pretty hard to do. The amount of energy required is enormous, and I don't mean mystical energy, just energy.

I think and have always thought from the moment I saw him, that Carlos Castaneda was extraordinary intellectually and lacking emotionally. I don't think he was a war criminal though, nor should he be treated as one. When a male star or even just a man who has some local recognition value is present, some women make themselves available sexually. And some men bow down for little pets on the head that signify inclusion. That's the reason why the stars that embrace themselves as stars like being stars. Having a strong sexual urge and being famous makes that urge easy to satisfy and difficult to resist. I don’t know what Carlos did if anything.Carlos was a person of some substance however. The people around him were of less to no substance. He should not be judged by what they did.

The Sustanied action list is very prejudiced against Carlos Castaneda for petty personal reasons that are irrelevant. The strident hysterical contemptuous tone betrays they’re childish continued dependence on Carlos who has deserted them. That they could ever believe that this average person Carol Tiggs was literally in two places at once or in the second attention in the sense of being disappeared or was somebody powerful is so absurd that the only room for criticism should be self-criticism. All the problems they have encountered with Castaneda are at their source personal problems. Castaneda merely ignited what was already there.I believe Carlos was perverse and took pleasure from watching people like Dan and Corey fawn over him. He was also a person who had a capacity for being gentle, kind and understanding. When that capacity was exercised in earnest is a matter for debate for those who want to debate it.

Dan and Corey claim that they have more integrity than Carlos Castaneda. Integrity is something that you have to see for yourself. There is no integrity in looking through garbage and publishing pictures of a dying man.

Dan and Corey are doing what they claim Carlos Castaneda did. They are trying to trap the interest people have in these ideas from Carlos to themselves. It’s futile.They should not talk about awareness, as they don’t have enough awareness of themselves to be aware of what they are actually doing.

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Re: Disappointed
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/27/99

Very intelligent post. I suspect I know the source.

I disagree with you about the results of bringing down cleargreen. Bringing down cleargreen won't bring down Carlos, it will make it easier to figure out what was up. The cult needs to go away in order to find an honest evaluation of Carlos. To bring down the cult means to expose the leaders. Even if that doesn't disuade long time practicioners it will certainly dampen the supply of new ones.

Ultimately it doesn't matter what Corey, mine, or any other person's motivations are. It seems to be one of cleargreen's responses, don't pay attention to the information, look at their motives.

It's rather self-serving, don't you think?

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Re: Disappointed
From: John L.
Date: 11/27/99

You seem to know the score around here, however, these people (however bent they may be) are the only ones willing to get their hands dirty to get at the facts. Do you have any suggestions for finding the missing major players and/or bringing this sad little story to its exciting conclusion? Thank you.

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Re: Disappointed
From: Corey Donovan
Date: 12/2/99

A person taking full advantage of the option of posting here anonymously made a number of accusations and judgments: >>>>I would be careful to accept what these books say literally. I would be careful to accept what the Sustained Action people say also. Carlos Castaneda was exposed to information that is very useful. Concentrate on the information. It did not belong or emanate from him. It is very useful. <<<<

Castaneda sold books and seminars, and what he said made him out to be a very special being -- last of an allegedly long lineage, the only "double man" he had ever met beside don Juan, etc. The info here, on the other hand, is offered for free, and the personal experiences shared by former Sunday group people only tend to make us look like fools for having come, for a time, under the spell of a powerfully charismatic mythmaker. So in terms of judging the credibility of books vs. other information, there are some bases for discriminating between different types of info. And if Castaneda distorted his sources and put a lot of inconsistent statements into the mouths of "don Juan" and others, that would certainly be relevant to determining the "usefulness" of the information he was exposed to.

>>>>The Sustained action list is made up of some people who experienced a great deal of emotional hurt that surfaced after Carlos Castaneda died. These hurtful feelings have to do more with their relationship to other people (possibly parents who they never felt recognized by) than by Carlos Castaneda.<<<

That's your projection and assumption in order to minimize the value of what you read here. So far you have only indicated that you have trouble assessing the credibility and reliability of different types of information, so excuse us if we don't rely on you on a psychological expert, capable of diagnosing faceless people that you've never met or interacted with.

>>>>The motivation behind Sustained Action list is not good or useful.<<<<

In your opinion, probably because information calling into question the legitimacy of Castaneda's purported authority is threatening to you in some way. People write us every week, however, to say that information they have found here has been more than "useful"--many tell us that it has been enlightening and liberating. To each their own, I guess.

>>>> It calls for the destruction of Castaneda as a personality. He should not be destroyed. Why do that to anyone who you can simply walk away from.<<<<

The site does not call "for the destruction of Castaneda as a personality." It does offer a lot of info on what he and the other "special beings" in his group were really doing, and likely sources of inspiration for their work, partly as an antidote to a lot of the more destructive practices and attitudes he advocated (like eliminating family members from one's life). But your response to people who have fabricated a lot of stories about their "specialness" and claimed repeatedly that they were not making anything up, detrimentally affecting the lives of many sincere people that one still cares about is to simply "walk away" without saying anything? Maybe that's your approach to life, but I submit that it's approach that doesn't work very well for most people who really are interested in being "aware" in their lives.

>>>>The problem for Dan and Corey is they are still emotionally dependent on Carlos Castaneda and they feel the only way to get rid of this feeling (Which is truly uncomfortable) is to destroy him. A better idea is to stop thinking about him and remove yourselves from any contact with his "legacy". Close down this site; get involved in other activities for a period of years that have nothing to do with him (that's how long it will take). Don't talk to other people who have been involved with him. Ban any self-involvement with gazing or dreaming and all the other things you may have learned or imagined that you have learned from him. That's how you destroy him. You will not want to do this because you will feel you are nothing without having him to battle. You will have to feel like nothing until you can get involved in something else. Please don't imagine yourself to be exemplary heroes trying to help others.<<<<

More projection on your part. But your calls to close down the site and stop talking to others about this information are the natural responses of someone who is very threatened that someone that they have based their own identity and sense of specialness on is being questioned. I submit that *you* are the one "still emotionally dependent on Carlos Castaneda," hence your urgent calls that others should stop questioning what he said and did.

>>>>Human beings do not want to change. The only way to change them definitively is through trickery. It requires an extraordinary person.<<<

Trickery is a very dangerous way to try to change people, and certainly not "the only way." I have, for example, been involved in change efforts that have completely altered the landscape within the entertainment industry for the way gays and lesbians are portrayed in movies and television. I also caused dozens of conservative companies to completely change their corporate policies and to adopt domestic partner benefits for their gay and lesbian employees. This did not involve trickery but honesty and speaking from the heart. I have also been involved in transformational mediation, which can truly change people and relationships in a lasting way, through finding making it safe for people who care about each other to communicate their true feelings. Trickery, on the other hand, generally backfires, and can lead to endless manipulation and deception rationalized as a "any appropriate means" to an otherwise legitimate end.

>>>>Carlos was a person of some substance however. The people around him were of less to no substance. He should not be judged by what they did. <<<<

Another very judgmental statement on your part. Maybe many of those around him were 19-year-old females when he first met him, on whom he used every trick in the book to dominate and control. That doesn't mean, however, that they are of "no substance," only that they may have been tragically misused and thrown off track in their lives.

>>>>I believe Carlos was perverse and took pleasure from watching people like Dan and Corey fawn over him. He was also a person who had a capacity for being gentle, kind and understanding. When that capacity was exercised in earnest is a matter for debate for those who want to debate it.<<<<

He was a very complex person, with many good and bad qualities, like most real human beings. But I thought you were arguing that people shouldn't be debating about how he acted and his real motivations?

>>>>Dan and Corey claim that they have more integrity than Carlos Castaneda. Integrity is something that you have to see for yourself. There is no integrity in looking through garbage and publishing pictures of a dying man.<<<<

Integrity is very important to me, but I'm not about to claim that I have more integrity than anyone else. And if "publishing pictures of a dying man" helps to counter self-serving misinformation that issues repeatedly from the gang at Cleargreen, why is there "no integrity" in that?

>>>>Dan and Corey are doing what they claim Carlos Castaneda did. They are trying to trap the interest people have in these ideas from Carlos to themselves. It's futile.<<<<

More projection that tells a lot more about you than it does about us. As you have obviously not noticed, there is a minimum of personal info about me on this site, and I plan to keep it that way. I'm certainly not out to "trap" anyone's "interest" for myself. I'm certainly not looking for any "followers," and I don't believe Dan could be accused of doing so (although I can think of a number of people who *would* sign up for a "dreaming seminar" with him).

>>>>They should not talk about awareness, as they don't have enough awareness of themselves to be aware of what they are actually doing.<<<<

Thanks for more information about you and your approach to judging the awareness of others.

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Re: Disappointed
From: Adelina Cerritos
Date: 11/27/99

Dan, I wrote the long post about dissapointed, sorry forgot to put my name down a couple of times. Thanks for being open minded. I hope I can do the same.

In response to John L.:

Well, I think that in any movement the personalities take over and damage whatever information that might be credible. In my opinion, it is the information that is important. You will never find a "movement" or new idea that does not get diluted as it gets passed around. I don't think Carlos Castaneda is important or Dan or Corey or Adelina Cerritos is important. Just the ideas.

I think the ideas will be damaged by attacking personalities. You don't want the attackers to explain the ideas after they demolish the closest source to the originaal as it will only make matters worse. Only individuals can take advantage of information like this. The idea of having a workshop with 1200 people is so dumb.That's why it came from that Carol. She is the real destruction of Castaneda and he slavishly submitted to her incompetence as he was capable of doing to any women who acted as though they could push him around. He wanted to be pushed around by women. That was the secret to getting close to him. A good looking, conversational pushy women. Well, that's nothing new in humanity.

I believe Castaneda did meet someone. The idea of keeping it secret and having a lineage makes perfect sense. It has to be a small insulated group for the best results. Even with a small group there are tremendous problems. I don't think that "Don Juan" and his antecedents kept it secret because they were selfish or overly secretive, I think they did it to protect the information from becoming diluted. Of course there were social political concerns as always in Mexico or wherever.

You don't have to attack him or any of these people this is all going to fade away anyway on it's own. There is no engine running it. It is coasting to a stop and will be forgotten and pieces of whats left will be picked up by lesser individuals whose "sinfullness" is far worse than Castaneda.Then they will incorporate the ideas into their cheaper way of looking at things.

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Re: Disappointed
From: JG
Date: 12/1/99

I have a read a little about the Mormons ( a religion started in America the East Coast in the late 1800's with after vision of Jesus) and seen them in Salt Lake. To me it's silly. Christianity is silly. It's absurd and useless. Religions survive and flourish not because of what they believe but how they manage to situate themselves as political-economic forces. The belief system is usually (for all the demoninations) irrelevant to our times. Jesus was a jewish man who wanted the Romans out of Israel. That is who he was, that was his main concern.The M essiah to Jews at the time of Jesus meant someone who will rid Israel of it's occupiers (Romans, Persians whoever). It had nothing to do with saving humanity, Jesus never got the Romans out of Israel. He failed. I think he was probably a madman. His preachings were meant for Jews only. The ideas he presented were not new. He was an obscure person who Paul made into a very large person who permeates are conciousness as ghostly,vague heavy burden which drains our sensibility. Carlos might say Jesus was a flyer. .

If Castaneda's ideas were to become institutionalized (Christianity is institutionalized) it would have to have a political alliance with an economic structure. When that happens the ideas change to suit political needs and it become meaningless except as a political force. The Vatican has always been a political force.Islam is a political force.

You know it's interesting how Castaneda is being taken apart. But I will tell you that you would be better off investigating Jesus or Mohammed and taking them apart because their history is much more at the root of any of our cult behavior, any mystification and obessivie rigidity.

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Re: Disappointed
From: Corey
Date: 12/1/99

JG opined: >>>>Carlos might say Jesus was a flyer. . . . You know it's interesting how Castaneda is being taken apart. But I will tell you that you would be better off investigating Jesus or Mohammed and taking them apart because their history is much more at the root of any of our cult behavior, any mystification and obessivie rigidity.<<<<

Uh huh. I am pretty sure there are other websites out there dealing with the inconsistencies and intricacies of both Christianity and Islam if thatis what really interests you. This happens to be a website dealing with the works and philosophy of Castaneda, and the reason many of us are trying to piece together our memories, impressions and research regarding Castaneda is because we personally knew and/or were deeply affected by him. I didn't personally know Jesus or Mohammed, and can't add much to the vast literature that already exists on them.

Moreover, while the cults of Christianity and Islam are pretty well established, the cult-verging-on-nascent-religion of Castanedaism is still in its formative stages. Those of us who still have friends whose lives and thought patterns are affected by what now clearly looks like a cult to many of us are simply doing what we can todevelop and provide information that might ultimately bring such people to a greater awareness of what this phenomenon was all about. And people like me are still quite fascinated by the phenomenon and are trying to get as much out of this experience of an authoritarian, charismatic, vastly entertaining "non-guru guru" as we can. And believe me there is much more to learn about him and ourselves for those who are so inclined.

For example, your post reasons that "Carlos might say Jesus was a flyer." There is a great deal of information about what you have bought into from Castaneda's diatribes in that statement that it appears you have yet to really examine. You might want to start by looking at some of the essays by Calixto on the Explorations page regarding Castaneda's concept of the "Flyers." Or you may prefer to pursue your study of Jesus and Mohammed as cult figures. At any rate, your advice that those of us who were/are inspired by Castaneda's writings "would be better off investigating Jesus or Mohammed and taking them apart," seemsgreatly misplaced. Some of us can learn a lot more that is relevant to our lives by simply investigating what is close at hand.

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Re: Disappointed
From:
Date: 12/1/99

On quick reflection, I think what I wrote about Castaneda saying Jesus might have been a flyer is dumb.I think Jesus was a man, that's all.

Cults: The power of a cult exists in it's members-not the leader. It is more relevant to understand the people who followed Castaneda than to understand Castaneda if you want to understand what a cult is.

Many of the people I spoke to had been followers or members of other groups with "strong" figures who they were once associated.

Anyway then, to explore the cult question a little Can you answere a few questions:

Do you see similarities between the followers of Castaneda in terms of their personalities?

I have read the explorations section. However what is your impression as to who besides the blue scout were in position of power within the group. Who were in weak postions. Why, in your opinion.

Was there a group or individuals who Castaneda was teaching formally or informally before he started the workshops? Who were they? What happened to them? Why do you think (Not the Carol explanantion) or what information do you have as to why he started teaching groups.

When and how did Kylie enter into his life and in what capacity. Where are these people who left cleargreen Kylie and the rest. What do they say now if anything. What are they doing as far as work goes.

What do you think Carol's real reasons are for wanting to start the teaching in groups.

Can you comment on the group dynamics of the group around Castaneda. What were the inner group alliances. Where were the tension points between members of Cleargreen. For example was Kylie opposed by Nuri. Did they get along. Was their jealousy. Why was Carol elevated to position of Nagual and Florinda not-do you think.

Your personal impressions of: Blue Scout Reni Nyei Florinda Grant

Carol has not left with the others. What do you think the reason for this is.

B

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Re: Disappointed
From: Corey Donovan
Date: 12/3/99

The same individual who recently blasted this site as having a "motivation that is not good or useful," and who specifically advised Lawton and me to "stop thinking about Castaneda" and to walk away now asks a zillion questions about relationships within Castaneda's inner circle:

>>>>Anyway then, to explore the cult question a little Can you answere a few questions: Do you see similarities between the followers of Castaneda in terms of their personalities? I have read the explorations section. However what is your impression as to who besides the blue scout were in position of power within the group. Who were in weak postions. Why, in your opinion. Was there a group or individuals who Castaneda was teaching formally or informally before he started the workshops? Who were they? What happened to them? Why do you think (Not the Carol explanantion) or what information do you have as to why he started teaching groups. When and how did Kylie enter into his life and in what capacity. Where are these people who left cleargreen Kylie and the rest. What do they say now if anything. What are they doing as far as work goes. What do you think Carol's real reasons are for wanting to start the teaching in groups. Can you comment on the group dynamics of the group around Castaneda. What were the inner group alliances. Where were the tension points between members of Cleargreen. For example was Kylie opposed by Nuri. Did they get along. Was their jealousy. Why was Carol elevated to position of Nagual and Florinda not-do you think. Your personal impressions of: Blue Scout Reni Nyei Florinda Grant Carol has not left with the others. What do you think the reason for this is.<<<<

Given this long laundry list of things you are now apparently curious about relating to the "cultish nature" of Castaneda's group, your diatribe of just a few days ago does take on an acutely schizophrenic quality. Your prior post also doesn't leave me terribly inclined to address your current laundry list, which includes topics a lot pettier than those dealt with in the Chronlogies or other essays on this site of which you have previously complained.

For the time being, I will simply respond, as I did in another post today, that it is a great leap of faith to assume that Castaneda was telling the truth when he attributed the concept and impetus behind the workshops to Carol Tiggs. Castaneda had a long-standing habit of attributing potentially controversial ideas of his own to others, and there is lots of evidence, that may be shared in later chronologies, indicating that the concept and impetus for the workshops came from Castaneda alone, as did most every other move he and his group made when he was still alive.

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Re: Disappointed
From: Corey
Date: 12/2/99

Adelina opined: >>>>The idea of having a workshop with 1200 people is so dumb.That's why it came from that Carol. She is the real destruction of Castaneda and he slavishly submitted to her incompetence as he was capable of doing to any women who acted as though they could push him around. He wanted to be pushed around by women. That was the secret to getting close to him. A good looking, conversational pushy women. Well, that's nothing new in humanity.<<<<

Just because Castaneda often claimed that the workshops were Carol's idea (or that charging for them was either the Chacmools' idea or, at other times, the two "scouts" idea) hardly makes it true. It is much more likely that the idea was Castaneda's, since his real personal history shows him to be a major control freak, and as someone who was constantly coming up with new tasks and projects for his inner circle to keep them in a constant whirl of activity that centered on him. I believe Carol was just the one that he jokingly ascribed the idea of the workshops too, since he had a long habit of ascribing to others ideas that might be considered inconsistent to his supposed instruction from don Juan.

Others have mocked the Sunday folk for "believing" that Carol was really gone for 10 years (or, more accurately, for "suspending judgment" on that topic, as we were constantly instructed to do). I think it is equally shortsighted to buy into statements like this on the part of Castaneda that have a more likely basis in avoiding personal blame and hiding his real motivations and intentions.

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Re: Disappointed
From: Al, Adelina, Mickey, JG, Biff
Date: 12/3/99

My name is John Garvey. All of my multiple personalities have grown weary. We will no longer take advantage.

Good Luck to you.

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The New NA
From: Bishop
Date: 11/25/99

Scott, I believe you've hit the nail on the head. I am more confused with Cleargreen & Co. than anything else, it's one thing to decieve other people and sustain a charade, but to lie to yourself and believe your own delusions ( which CC & Co apparently have done) is an extremely difficult maneuver. How does one lie to oneself so blatantly? Carlos was, admittedly, a very sophisticated man. But built into his own philosophy was the very defenses against the trappings he found himself (and others). I'm in total agreement with you when you say you cannot throw the baby out with the bath water. Although I didn't experience much with Tensegrity, recapitulating and other aspects of the teachings did produce profound results. I'm interested to know about your experiences with the recapitulation, (as well as anybody else with input)and also dreaming and gazing.

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Re: The New NA
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/27/99

I was driving with someone this weekend and started to see energy on the freeway. There were some blue lines that stretched from the horizon upward, at a specific angle. They were extremely bright, not something you could miss.

On seeing them I realized I'd seen them many times before, in fact they were so obvious you couldn't avoid seeing them.

I wanted to ask the person who was driving if she saw them too. My feeling was that she had to, there they were!

But I restrained myself because I've learned from experience that when you are seeing, something that is an absolute energetic fact, for instance that we all must see those lines and ignore them, doesn't seem so absolute or obvious when you aren't seeing.

I tried to tell her about the lines afterwards, but being a true believer it was nearly impossible to explain anything to her.

I was left with a new theory about seeing. From any point of reference, such as a particular view from seeing, there is a myriad of energetic facts that go along with the vision. If you could return to that exact vision, you'd discover the same facts.

But you can't do that. Each time you'll end up in another point of view. Thus what you see isn't really applicable, because you can never return to the same place.

I believe that Carlos fell for the feeling of truthfullness that comes from seeing, probably induced by Datura he ate. He related his experieces as fascinating tales in order to keep the feeling of excitement up. It wasn't convenient for him to explain that the "facts" might actually be totally inapplicable.

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Re: The New NA
From: Lonnie
Date: 12/6/99

Soap:

There are numerous things is the world - especially those that science can't explain yet - that ARE magical. It may well be that science (or a curious individual) UNMAGICS a phenomenon thereby clouding the constant magic going on with a cloud of unexciting grey fuzz (or scientific fact based on empirical evidence). The path I'm on at the moment is REdiscovering the magic. The hardest thing to do is to find magic that has already been UNmagicked.

Lonnie:

Well, everyone loves to talk about magic and magic killers, but no one wants to nail down what they mean by magic. Why? No doubt because that kills the "magic." I'd like to take the opposite approach and produce a working definition. Since this is my working definition, it's okay with me if you don't like or agree with it.

Magic is the sense of awe and wonder one experiences when encountering something totally unexpected.

The realization that some aspect of things has turned out to be different than one had thought often leads to onforseen technologies, unsuspected powers.

From that viewpoint, it seems to me that scientific explanation and magic are not at all inconsistent. If you look at the history of the matter, prior to the 18th century, scientific inquiry frequently ran afoul of the political/cultural status quo (the infamous social order). At some point people began to realize that the church's position regarding the position of earth in the universe or humans in the scheme of things came down to the church saying (to quote groucho) "who are you gonna believe--me or your own two eyes?"

If you look at the trajectory of scientific inquiry over the last 400 years you might discover an interesting trend: something has changed and something has remained the same. The inquiry started with an impliciit assumption that the world is its own reality (in contrast to the church's doctrine that it was created and is maintained by God) and plays by its own rules. Things came to be regarded as pretty much as they appear, and what natural philosophers (as scientists were called then) wanted to know was what are the laws that govern the behavior of pheonomena.

Now quantum mechanics and relativity have torpedoed such a naively realistic view, but the assumption that the world plays by its own rules remains. For a long while, scientific explanations appeared to be "explaining away" the magic. In my entirely subjective view on this matter, the nineteenth century saw this attitude reach its apex. At the same time people like Maxwell were coming up with some strangely magical, one could almost say mystical, ideas: electromagnetism, the idea of a field... Before long people were harnessing this strange force to perform all kinds of magical tasks--projecting speech over great distances, creating light in a darkened room. But of course, as is always the case with magic, using powers that you don't fully understand for selfish ends can have negative side effects.

Now we have pollution, global warming, etc. That magic is pretty hairy stuff.

Oh well.

Here's the point. You can't explain away the magic. The universe goes its way regardless of whether or not we are able to appreciate it. Every explanation of an apparent miracle uncovers scores of new miracles to explore.

In my opinion the world is plenty magical. And the more you know about it the more magical it appears. At this point, I really don't see how there's any more magic in CC's morbid fantasies than there is in the insanely unlikely maneuvers your nervous system has to perform just to present the sensation of a rough or smooth, hot or cool surface.

Lonnie

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Super Pussy
From: erik grafstrom
Date: 11/25/99

All at once I heard myself stutter "I- I- I would like to be a superpussy, c-c-can I?" Then something in me said "NO, No I didn't mean it!"

I am very thankful that SA uncovered and posted the super pussy speech. As scripted, it is a truly remarkable event, brilliantly staged.

I have in my mind the image of the lisping Carol Tiggs plaintively asking to be a "super pussy". This is transcedent humour. It is valuable because it illuminates in a condensed poetic manner a very large slice of the human psyche.

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Re: Super Pussy
From: Leonard Zimmerman
Date: 11/25/99

Actually, it's funnier if the theme song for Underdawg would be playing in the background.

Having the image in my mind of a rapt Cleargreen audience is also rather droll. It reminds me of a job I had once in a bookstore where a young developmentally disabled woman would come in, make a beeline to the sexual manuals section, sit on the floor with all of the books spread out open around her on the floor, taking each of the books and licking the pages as she turned them. One was caught between the desire to laugh hysterically or to cry. I mean, how was she to know that what she was doing was ridiculous? How were the Cleargreen folk to know that what they were listening to was ridiculous?

My feeling is that this whole "manifesto" was played out before a group of people who probably already passed the suggestibility test of falling for the "Witch's Black Eye" and were open to believe almost anything afterwards. To me, it was clearly designed to have people become more compliant to the whims of CC & Co.

This is something which I think would not be classified as part of the "Warrior's Way".

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Re: Super Pussy
From: erik grafstrom
Date: 11/25/99

' This is something which I think would not be classified as part of the "Warrior's Way". '

But as you are not hancuffed by the 'warrior's way' you can see it in a literary sense, as an addendum to the overall 'oeuvre'. As a literary work it operates on several complex metaphorical levels. Here the rapt cleargreen audience forms the backdrop, an equisite 'tableau'. This is an unusual piece of work that I think many are dismissing solely as accusatory material.

So, where did the 'appropiated' idea come from? The only connection I can suggest right now is that great novelist Henry Miller. Other suggestions?

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Carlos really was a sorcerer (of the second type)
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/27/99

I have a new theory on what a sorcerer is.

There are 2 types. One fits in to a tradition, such as the son of the medicine man in the tribe. He inherits the post, just as the guy who knows how to make the pottery inherits that post. Over the years this shaman is bound to learn a lot about healing people just because sick people end up being brought to him.

The magical side of it all is probably the "ideal" of his business, but also maybe not all that important and not an overpowering part of his life. It's probably more of a supervisory role, as keeper of some religious traditions. Like the football coach saying the prayer at the start of the game, although a bit more real. Maybe power plant rituals are mixed in, so the "spiritual" side is certainly going to be active at times.

Then there's the second type of sorcer, the guy who decides he's going to learn to be a "sorcerer". That guy goes out looking for info. His attention is entirely focussed on the magical ideal. But his motives are to control or impress other people.

If the guy is honest, he probably does it for a while, then realizes it isn't going to do anything, and gives it up or continues on with it as a long term experiment..

But if the guy is dishonest, meaning he sees other people as being for his benefit, he simply declares himself magical as soon as possible. Then he strikes off to cash in on his new status as a magical being. Of course, there's really no magic.

Complicating all this is the fact that faith really can aid in healing people, and also belief can produce altered states of consciousness. So the attention seeking sorcerer can also pick up knowledge over the years, just like the tribal shaman. Except in his case he learns how to manipulate people using the healing power of faith, and the consciousness altering power of belief.

Followers probably fall into many types. Someone pointed out to me this weekend that some of the cleargreenite women probably just associated with Carlos because he was famous. I hadn't thought of that one. Some women are attracted to famous people. I guess that's fair. I like Britney Spears.

But some are attracted to manipulative sorcerers because inside themselves they feel there's something wrong. And rather than realize that only hard work is going to fix that, boring hard work such as actual learning and studying, they want a quick secret. The lack in these people is emotional, so the quick secret technique is perfect. They don't care if it actually produces the result, because it immediatly fills their emotional lack to believe in the technique. And it becomes very easy and mindless to repeat the technique daily, like a purging ritual. In the long run they end up doing just as much work, but they avoid having to actually do any thinking which might result in an honest and painful evaluation of themselves.

Sadly, these type of people will ignore and even fight against any evidence that their sorcerer leader is of the manipulative type. To be removed from their quick fix mental state is too painful and even honest can't get through.

Eventually such a person would figure out the technique didn't really solve their problem because the lack in their life will start to peek through the feeling of hope. But the manipulative sorcerer has that problem solved. He provides a continuous supply of placebo quick fix techniques. As long as he can keep the feeling of excitement alive the person is hooked.

I hear that the next workshop will feature techniques to lift the fog from the awareness of women. Something not taught before! The last workshop's techniques came from Olinda, it will be exicting to hear where these new ones came from.

Carlos really was a sorcerer. If you take the time to study various other sorcerers from Mexico you'll see quite a few of these faith healer types. You'll even find that people say that trickery is an integral part of this type of sorcery.

I suggest reading the info about the sorcerer Ramona, whom Carlos hung out with. Also there seems to be interesting info on the psychic surgeon who was the son of the original female surgeon Carlos talked about. In both cases if you study the available info you might conclude that fakery and trickery are quite high on the list of techniques, but that it doesn't matter because that's really what sorcery is. Convincing people through trickery. The idea is to keep them around supporting you and idolizing you so that the sorcerer can acheive his original goal of being revered as a magical being.

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Re: Carlos really was a sorcerer (of the second type)
From: Ahmo
Date: 11/28/99

Dan, I disagree with your presentation of the first type of sorcerer. You make the extrordinary sound marginal when in most cases in societies with shamen, it is much more central, often both to the shamen themselves and to the general community. The marginality is the western placement of such things, such as religion, not 'really' being anything but belief and social gatherings. I hope you can see how we impose our definitions of the organization of the world on others and deny them the right to define reality on their terms not just in their terms.

reachin'

Ahmo

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Re: Carlos really was a sorcerer (of the second type)
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/29/99

I was exagerating for fun. However, I used to hang out on the morongo indian reservation, and the tribal shaman pretty much fit that description, at least when I was around.

Now she gives lectures to white people.

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INFINITY SPEAKS
From: A LOYAL FRIEND OF CARLOS
Date: 11/27/99

I PROPOSE TO YOU A POSIBILITY . SUPPOSE THAT INFINITY DECIDED THAT"IT" WANTED TO GIVE TO "US" A SUBLIME AND AWESOME GIFT.BUT IN ORDER TO GIVE US THIS GIFT "IT" NEEDED A MESSENGER.THIS MESSENGER WOULD NOT BE A NICELY PACKAGED "GREAT ONE" BUT INSTEAD AN UNBELIEVABLE SEQUENCE OF EVENTS THAT DID REQUIRE A KEY PLAYER TO CARRY OUT THE TRIGGER EVENT.INFINITY FOUND THAT CARLOS CASTANEDA WAS THE MAN FOR THE JOB FOR WHATEVER REASONS KNOWN ONLY TO "IT".INFINITY CAME TO CARLOS IN THE FORM OF DON JUAN,EITHER THE OLD FASHIONED WAY,OR THROUGH AN AWESOMELY COMPLEX SEQUENCE OF NOT NECESSARILY LINEAR EVENTS AND AVENUES.FOR INFINITY WAS ONLY CONCERNED WITH MAKING THE GIFT AVAILABLE TO US,NOT WITH GIVING US A NEW HERO TO WORSHIP.IT WAS DON CARLOS'JOB TO AQUIESE.INFINITY DESIRED OF DON CARLOS TO LIVE AND BEHAVE IN A MANNER TOTALLY CONTRADITORY TO OUR HOPES AND EXPECTATIONS IN ORDER TO PRECICELY CARRY OUT THE GIVING OF THE GIFT IN THE MOST EFFECTIVE MANNER POSSIBLE.HAD CARLOS'SELF IMPORTANCE GOTTEN IN THE WAY,AN CAUSED HIM TO ACT IN ACCORANCE WITH OUR HOPES OF A NEW PERFECT LINEAR GURU ,THEN THE GIFT COULD NOT HAVE BEEN GIVEN IN ITS ENTIRETY.CARLOS CARRIED OUT THE DESIRES OF INFINITY IMPECCABLY. A LIVING DOCUMENT HAS BEEN IMPLAMENTED THAT STILL BEARS FRUIT THROUGH SEQUENCE OF EVENTS EVEN THROUGH THIS FORUM AND SITE,WHICH IS ALL PART OF THE MESSAGE FROM INFINITY. THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF THE DEATH OF CARLOS WAS A PARTICULARLY IMPORTANT PART OF THE MESSAGE,FOR IT TELLS US THAT HE WAS TOTALY MORTAL AS ARE WE. INFINITY KNOWS THE PHSYCOLOGY OF HUMANS DOWN TO PERFECTION AND KNOWS THAT WE ARE SEEKING AN EXAMPLE OF A BEING THAT CAN CHEAT MORTALITY TO GIVE US THE HOPE THAT WE CAN ALSO,BUT INFINITY SAYS "I AM SORRY,BUT YOU TOO WILL DIE,NOT IN A GLORIOUS BALL OF FIRE,BUT AS A MAN,JUST LIKE ELVIS,JUST LIKE CARLOS".HOW ELSE CAN YOUR AWARENESS BE TRANSFORMED BY THE GIFT?THE SOBERING BRINGS ON THE MAGIC OF THE GIFT.WHAT WAS IMPORTANT FROM DON CARLOS,WAS THAT HE CARRY OUT THE DESIRES OF INFINITY SO THAT THE GIFT COULD PROPERLY BE GIVEN,NOT TO ENJOY THE LEGACY OF PERFECTION BEING LEFT BEHIND FOR US TO ADMIRE. I WOULD LOVE FOR YOU TO REMEMBER THE WAY HE ENDED THE AWESOME ODYSEY OF BOOKS IN "THE ACTIVE SIDE OF INFINITY",BY SAYING,"IF YOU DEFINE FRIEND AS SOMEONE WHO SEES THROUGH THE VENEER THAT COVERS YOU AND KNOWS WHERE YOU REALLY COME FROM"

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Re: INFINITY SPEAKS
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/27/99

Here's your cult behavior.

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Re: INFINITY SPEAKS
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/29/99

Corey posted oodles of this stuff, and Carlos and group fit it to a tee. Isn't some of it on the main pages? I read too much of it, I don't need to read any more. It was from that material that I started harping on the cult thing, before that we used to say it just for occasional fun, not really believing it. If you claim you read some material that didn't match them, that's really strange. Corey excerpted several books. It was really sickening how common this situation is.

One thing that struck me most was the assertion that being the leader of a cult (or a guru) caused terrible isolation in the leader, leading to boredom and compensatory behavior. In Carlos' case, I've heard from several people lately who paint a picture of Carlos as sitting around watching TV on the couch, getting antsy, and using his cellular phone to order someone over for a sexual encounter. One woman used to complain to us that it was driving her crazy, but at the time we didn't understand what exactly was driving her crazy. We thought it was some sorcerers maneuver, not sexual responsibilities.

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Re: cognitive loops
From: Leonard Zimmerman
Date: 11/28/99

This is one of the issues covered on the webpage:

New-Age gurus, cults as well as established religious leaders, preachers, priests and counselors often use hypnotic techniques to influence you and your behavior. Again, the justification they use is that it is for your own good - to help you to become more well-adjusted, happier, successful, powerful, to bring you closer to enlightenment, God, etc. If they use trance to accomplish these goals, they often don't know what they are doing. If they do know what they are doing and you don't, then it is trance abuse.

I'm not sure if you know this, but Carol Tiggs was using a standard Rapid Hypnotic Induction technique at the workshops, telling people that they were succumbing to the "Witch's Black Eye". I saw this when it happened and since I had studied hypnotism myself, recognized it for what it was. Unfortunately, for those who were rather suggestible, it did seem like magic. There is at least one contributor to this list who did NOT fall for the technique and I hope he will tell his story.

At any rate, I believe that Carol Tiggs used this technique to have people who were closer to Castaneda submit to their whims.

It seems that some people have issues with those of us who feel that people around Castaneda & Co. are entrenched in cult mentality, but I sincerely feel that this is the case. For those of us who have had nonordinary experiences, it has been especially difficult to come to grips with the idea that we were involved with supporting a cult. Coming to this realization really pulled the rug out from under my feet, because I did not know into which context to place those experiences. I mean, many of us have had "hand dreams" right? But because we have had those dreams, should we accept the rest of the baggage that Castaneda gave us?

Let's take a look at some of that baggage. What about the idea that "flyers" are especially prevalent at the beach? Since I have had two nonordinary experiences at the beach, I think that this is a control issue that Castaneda used to keep his female "apprentices" in line. I believe that he made this story up to keep the women from going to beach and being seen in swimsuits. This would keep them from getting attention from men who would be competitors for his attention. The same goes for the admonition for not exercising outside, which he said that wind on a perspiring body is deleterious. This also would keep the women from venturing in public to jog in shorts and risk attracting attention from competing males. I feel that he recommended celibacy only because he was able to keep men from being competitors in his search for more women to bed.

It also seems that the Sunday sessions were quite useful for bringing women in for the pleasure of Carlos. The men were basically rendered eunuchs and used as part of Castaneda's backdrop. For one thing, he had secured a group of men who desired to remain celibate because they wanted to attain "sorceric" skills. This was one way to keep them from being competitors. I feel that it was also a decoy, because from what I understand, women were brought into a group of men who might normally be making advances, but would not because they had made the decision to remain celibate. Then Carlos was there to fill the vacuum. If I had had that attention within the milieu of a group of people who were obviously deeply committed, I may have slept with him myself. I think my judgment may have been impaired enough so that I would have done so.

So, my feeling is that what makes Castaneda's work cult like rather than just a set of beliefs or methods for attaining nonordinary or dreaming experiences, is that the group of individuals who were close to Castaneda were being manipulated. In addition, I feel that most, if not all, of the current followers of Castaneda refuse to look at any of the above issues. They make all sorts of excuses for the behavior of CC & Co., using terminology they learned from what they read and heard, even though much of it is contradictory.

What do we have left? Dreaming and nonordinary experiences that no longer require the Castanedan lens to define them.

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Re: cognitive loops
From: Theophilos
Date: 11/28/99

Leonard wrote;

So, my feeling is that what makes Castaneda's work cult like rather than just a set of beliefs or methods for attaining nonordinary or dreaming experiences, is that the group of individuals who were close to Castaneda were being manipulated. In addition, I feel that most, if not all, of the current followers of Castaneda refuse to look at any of the above issues. They make all sorts of excuses for the behavior of CC & Co., using terminology they learned from what they read and heard, even though much of it is contradictory.

Leonard, your thoughtful and honest commentary is very much appreciated. I agree that this issue has not been handled with the attention it deserves. It is possible that most here, myself included, have not had the close contact with Cleargreen and Sunday workshops that yourself and others exposed yourselves to. I went to one workshop. This would explain the lack of input.

Also, the dilemma which you have poignantly described in your post was not, to my knowlege, stated in such sincere and open terms. If it was I did not see any such posts as I am fairly new to this website. What I have come across often is mindless, provocative fluff from people who are intelligent but for whatever reason are to lazy to make the effort that you have just done. The concept of cult has been used as a didactic device to make arguments which unfortunately did not clear up anything but rather create more confusion.

Another difficulty with the cult allegory is that if we are to accept that line of thought, we can also lump almost any human endeavor into that boat. Most people are on one track. A well worn track. There is no shortage of gurus in our everyday reality. And I would say that the number of suicidal psychotics on that track does not need to be pointed out. Yet it is more real and tangible only be default. Most do not venture beyond that.

We are all in the same boat. These discussions are due to difficulties and challenges that we all have in regards to CC's teachings. For those who were involved in ways such as yourself, there is a particular dilemma there which is definitely unique. It is wise to step aside and find your bearings. For others the experience is very different. We are plodding along more slowly, cross referencing with everything we have learned, and painstakingly experiencing the cognitive discombobulation of every step in the road to awakening. This road is real and frighteningly unknown, and there is nothing wrong switching to a safer, known track while integrating new experiences.

Replica Watches  Replica Watches

I treasure every post in these discussions. Yes even the snarky remarks. There is a valuable speck of truth in each and every one. Everyone of us is like a feeler moving into unknown territory. What each individual painfully experiences is an asset to all when shared. Thank you Linda.

t

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Re: cognitive loops
From: diana
Date: 11/28/99

Leonard, I read what you wrote, but I have to admit it's hard for me to see some of it. You say that "those around Castaneda are entrenched in cult mentality". Actually, maybe some of those around him are, I don't know much about them at all. I am *not* from Cleargreen, as much as Greg and Calixto have insisted from practically my first post that I must be. I'm just someone who read the books and whatever I could get my hands on via the internet etc. But you say that those who are TB's, and I have been labeled a TB enough, don't want to really look at what you call "the baggage". And this is what you say the baggage is - First, that Carlos said that Flyers are prevalent at the beach. You say you think he said this because women go to the beach in, shall we say, scanty attire, and seem to be saying that women in scanty attire are more liable to attract men when they are in scanty attire then at other times...and then Carlos said that women should not excercise outdoors...you say scanty attire again. But I know I read that Carlos said that there are "winds" or "currents of air" that Don Juan said "are not just currents of air". And I know that the beach is one of THE most windy places you can go...what I really mean is that if it was the case that you are right about Carlos not wanting any kind of "competition", and if women in scanty attire DO provoke men to make advances, then following along those lines, did Carlos say to women "don't wear perfume" or did he say "don't wear high heels" or "make sure to wear always keep the skin covered by wearing long sleeves and long pants where ever you go" or "don't wear makeup"? I'm really asking you that. Did he? If he didn't, then maybe he just really believed in the wind stuff! I know I can't be sure, but are you? The next thing you mention is that Carlos made the men into eunuchs. I haven't heard that yet from the men...Dan, Calixto...did you feel like eunuchs? I have to say that all thru what I read, Carlos was always saying that he had huge problems with NOT having sex. I read he brought "girlfriends" to see don Juan, that he told Don Juan about relationships that might have involved women being pregnant, that Carlos was "not complete", meaning he HAD fathered children, and Carlos even said "what can be done about man's natural sensuality". So maybe that's why I'm not so surprised to hear that he had sex with these women. I just read where he said that Nagual Julian "fucked whole towns". Now you were there, so I admit you may have heard stuff that came out of his mouth. What did he say? I think if I heard more details, and not just that "he took advantage of women by fucking them" I might be more able to understand why it seems to anger so many people from SA. You say you feel it is a cult or was a cult because "people were being manipulated". But people are being manipulated everywhere, in many business situations, personal situations...and also being manipulated into what? You fluff off any statements like that Carol Tiggs speech might have been meant as a way to "manipulate" people into a higher awareness, but CT *says* at the start that what she is about to say is NOT for your rational mind. And that statement or concept is not something that she just makes up conveniently on the spur of the moment, it's a concept that is dealt with over and over again. You say you are answered with cult babble or that this type response to you is just "an excuse" using "terminology" from the books, even if it's contradictory. So what I can say to that...if I say that being "contradictory" is another concept that is "part of the path" for lack of a better way to put it. Yes, there *are* contradictions...Don Juan says "sorcerer's contridictions"...The thing is, you say "what do we have left" and then answer that by saying "dreaming and non-ordinary experiences that no longer require Carlos Castaneda"...I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not attached to the idea that there's no room for learning from experiences of others, but I think there is a BIT more left to 'the legacy of Carlos Castaneda' then just 'dreaming' and some 'non ordinary experiences'. I think there is a lot to learn from exploring what Carlos left behind. Maybe *cleargreen* WAS a mistake, but many have said that Carlos himself was being manipulated by "the women". Do you feel that Carlos was really "the bad guy" and on top of ALL the manipulation, or do you think maybe he was just not the *perfect* person that so many of you seem to act like you expected him to be? Diana.

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Re: cognitive loops
From: Leonard Zimmerman
Date: 11/29/99

>> You say that "those around Castaneda are entrenched in cult mentality". Actually, maybe some of those around him are, I don't know much about them at all. I am *not* from Cleargreen, as much as Greg and Calixto have insisted from practically my first post that I must be. I'm just someone who read the books and whatever I could get my hands on via the internet etc.>>

I don’t care if you are from Cleargreen or not.>>But you say that those who are TB's, and I have been labeled a TB enough, don't want to really look at what you call "the baggage". And this is what you say the baggage is - First, that Carlos said that Flyers are prevalent at the beach. You say you think he said this because women go to the beach in, shall we say, scanty attire, and seem to be saying that women in scanty attire are more liable to attract men when they are in scanty attire then at other times...and then Carlos said that women should not excercise outdoors...you say scanty attire again. But I know I read that Carlos said that there are "winds" or "currents of air" that Don Juan said "are not just currents of air". And I know that the beach is one of THE most windy places you can go...>>

The beach is windy, but he specifically said that there were "flyers" there, not that one should stay away from the beach because of the wind. My point is that I feel that Carlos had an overly controlling relationship with all of the women under his care.

>>what I really mean is that if it was the case that you are right about Carlos not wanting any kind of "competition", and if women in scanty attire DO provoke men to make advances, then following along those lines, did Carlos say to women "don't wear perfume" or did he say "don't wear high heels" or "make sure to wear always keep the skin covered by wearing long sleeves and long pants where ever you go" or "don't wear makeup"? I'm really asking you that. Did he?>>

According to Corey, he did have some sort of say so over their hairstyles. I believe that either he cut their hair or they went to the same barber as he. As for perfume or high heels, I don’t know.>>I have to say that all thru what I read, <Big Snip> I just read where he said that Nagual Julian "fucked whole towns".>>

I think that almost everything that Castaneda wrote was fiction. He may have met some informants briefly, but that seems to have been the extent of his contact with any shamanic knowledge.

>>Now you were there, so I admit you may have heard stuff that came out of his mouth. What did he say? I think if I heard more details, and not just that "he took advantage of women by fucking them" I might be more able to understand why it seems to anger so many people from SA.>>

Let’s see, something he wrote: "She had gone to see an X-rated movie and I was eager to hear her description of it. She had not liked it at all. She maintained that it was a weakening experience because being a warrior entailed leading an austere life in total celibacy, like the Nagual Juan Matus." The Eagles Gift p. 113-114 trade paperback editionThen later, he said that after one had saved up enough energy for sex, one could have "fiestas". This is from one of the Sunday sessions, I don’t remember which one.Some women have spoken with Corey, but are reluctant to come forth, because they seem to be fearful of lawsuits.

>>You say you feel it is a cult or was a cult because "people were being manipulated". But people are being manipulated everywhere, in many business situations, personal situations...and also being manipulated into what?>>

Manipulated to service the "Nagual", of course.

>>You fluff off any statements like that Carol Tiggs speech might have been meant as a way to "manipulate" people into a higher awareness, but CT *says* at the start that what she is about to say is NOT for your rational mind.>>

Carol Tiggs is a no good, low down, lazy, lying, fat, princess bitch. The only "sorceric" skills she has is the ability to spread her legs and get laid. Dear, I’ve seen and experienced a nonrational thing or two in my day so I don’t need you to tell me about this speech being or not being something for the rational mind.>>And that statement or concept is not something that she just makes up conveniently on the spur of the moment, it's a concept that is dealt with over and over again. You say you are answered with cult babble or that this type response to you is just "an excuse" using "terminology" from the books, even if it's contradictory. So what I can say to that...if I say that being "contradictory" is another concept that is "part of the path" for lack of a better way to put it. Yes, there *are* contradictions...Don Juan says "sorcerer's contridictions"...The thing is, you say "what do we have left" and then answer that by saying "dreaming and non-ordinary experiences that no longer require Carlos Castaneda"...I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not attached to the idea that there's no room for learning from experiences of others, but I think there is a BIT more left to 'the legacy of Carlos Castaneda' then just 'dreaming' and some 'non ordinary experiences'. I think there is a lot to learn from exploring what Carlos left behind.>>

I don’t know how to put this to you gently, but you are speaking as if these people were "sorcerers". They are not.>>Maybe *cleargreen* WAS a mistake, but many have said that Carlos himself was being manipulated by "the women". Do you feel that Carlos was really "the bad guy" and on top of ALL the manipulation, or do you think maybe he was just not the *perfect* person that so many of you seem to act like you expected him to be?>>

In the big picture for me personally, Cleargreen was not a mistake. If it were not for Cleargreen, I would not have met some of the people I now know and love dearly. In addition, despite my feelings of disappointment about so many things there are some of those within Cleargreen I also love dearly, like Talia, Kylie, who’ve left, as well as Grant and Erin. The others I don’t know well enough to make that judgment, but I do care very much for their welfare.As far as an assumption of whether Castaneda was a *perfect* person. Who, of any of us would have expected him to be perfect? I expected that he was also a being who was always operating from a state of internal silence. Since I have had that experience, I naturally expected that he, as "Nagual" was in that state himself, or at least could bring himself into that state at will. I no longer believe that.

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Re: cognitive loops
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/29/99

Here are some things that happened in the sunday class:

A beautiful german woman (boy I wish I had her!) wore shorts that were too short to class and wasn't invited back. They weren't really out of line, you would see a lot worse in any gym, but they weren't monkish enough for the sunday class. I think they may have had a zipper on the side.

One of the cleargreen women wore a sweater to class one day, a pinkish 50s type sweater that showed too much of the shape of her breasts. Carlos tried to pull it off in class, and another cleargreener had to wisk her away to change clothes, otherwise he probably would have stripped her.

Makeup was strongly discouraged. I can't cite any specific examples, but all the women who started out with lots of makeup and a rather feminine look soon learned that you had to stop that or you were out. It was also understood that jewelry was not acceptable. One time Carlos commented that if he ever caught Carola wearing a sweater tied around her hips he'd kick her butt.

The men were told over and over to be celibate, Carlos even claimed to have "seen" that we were trying hard 1 week, but that on Tuesday someone had masturbated. He said we couldn't fool him, he could "see".

During classes it was pretty typical for Carlos to have a known crush on the most desirable female in the class (for the point of view of the average male) and to openly show lots of affection for her, taking her aside for cozy wisperings and inviting her over for a special dinner. One woman who resisted this badly was not invited back. Another who skillfully resisted was alternately brought closer and then not closer to the group, never quite making it in.

Carlos regularly ridiculed the idea of sleeping in the same bed with someone, and the couples in the group broke up (at least outwardly), for fear of not being invited back. Women who were known to have boyfriends they were fond of were not invited to class again, and were even the object of mocking stories.

Meanwhile, this didn't prevent Carlos from wooing the women he'd seperated from men in the group.

Women on the other hand were encouraged to be very affectionate with each other, grabing and playing and chasing openly in class. All the women started to imitate this behavior, because it clearly pleased Carlos. It was commented on how much energy they had, and that their internal dialogue must be getting quieter because they were starting to play like children. But in the long run it turned out that the ones playing like that were often involved in multipartner lesbian affairs, and the ones not so involved were imitating.

There are lots more examples like this.

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Re: cognitive loops
From: diana
Date: 11/29/99

I give up, I just can't understand this. The VERY first example you give me is of a gorgeous girl who were these short shorts TO CLASS, to class, NOT out to the beach or to do exercise, but to Carlos "hunting ground" where from what was said, supposedly Carlos did NOT have to worry about advances being made because the men were turned into eunuchs. And THEN you say 'she was NOT invited back'...Well, if she was not invited back, how could Carlos then fuck her and lavish attention on her?? I'm sorry if I'm missing something here, I swear, I don't understand this...

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Re: cognitive loops
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/29/99

That particular girl had really big breasts, and worked as a high class call girl. The only other girl I know of with really big breasts and possible viruses was rejected by Carlos, who assigned one of the men in his group to woo her (she was a very close friend of another girl he seemed to be having trouble getting).

We know of another woman who was constantly quized about viruses, so maybe that explains his slack of interest in the big breasted german girl. You were asking for examples of how he toned down the women, that was just one that stood out in my mind because I took a fancy to the zipper on the side of her shorts.

I also wanted to correct what I said about jewelry. Jewelry is given as special gifts to the women, who wear it proudly. But I also saw ordinary jewelry taken off the women.

I remember buying a gold chain for a girlfriend I had when I was younger, I bought her one each time we had sex. It was pretty fun to see all the chains on her. I think Carlos was doing the same thing, marking his property.

Tell me again why women put up with men...

As I recall, Kylie actually went over to her and made a stink about the shorts.

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Re: cognitive loops
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/29/99

>Since you cannot talk about the names of the women lets talk about quantity.

Another true believer out to defend cleargreen. This is getting really old. Can't you just take a look at the cult and see what's up?

>How many women did Carlos have sex with from the Workshops?

Forget workshops. Take the whole time. Why limit it to workshops?

I've been told (and believe) he's had sex with every female member of cleargreen with possible exception of 1. This info came from cleargreen people. The person he didn't have sex with was close to his own age, so that explains that one. The guise he used was "fixing the energy bar". So don't believe anyone from cleargreen if they look you straight in the eye and tell you he never had sex with them. What they mean is, it wasn't sex, he was fixing their energy bar. When they get out of the cult, then you can ask them, but for now they're out of it. I guess you could say they have a fog over their female awareness.

There are also at least 6 other women not now in cleargreen (former members) whom he wooed by calling them up and creating a special place in his organization ("electric warrior", "huricane woman", etc.), got them to join up, fuck him for a while (or resist), then got rid of them. In the case of Gloria, she got out by herself. If you ask around you can talk to most of these women. Gloria is teaching dreaming classes with a chinese friend, maybe you could go there and talk to her. She was in there for 7 or 8 years. It was quoted today that she said something like she got out because she didn't want to end up dead prematurely. Since these women are out, they'll be honest.

We have a complaint from a mother that he hit on her daughter at a workshop. We have an airline stewardess who was assaulted and a settlement was reached.

From sunday class we have 3 women I know personally who were wooed in various ways. One was invited over for special meetings, told she was the "usher" to the sunday group, then he tried to convince her that sex would usher things in. She misunderstood or resisted and was tossed out. Her friend was assigned to have sex with another cleargreen member, but then it was canceled. There are reasons for that I won't mention, but Carlos is known to have quizzed his women about sexual history. The third from sunday class was wooed up to the very end, split from her husband, but artfully resisted and thus never ended up in cleargreen.

>How many women sought him out to have sex with?

I have no idea. Famous people attract women.

>How many did he seek out to have sex with?

I listed enough, but it's by no means the full list.

>How many women mutally agreed to have sex with him?.

Seems besides the point. He was supposed to be an impeccable sorcerer who was navigating daily to infinity. The point is that he was really an isolated, bored man who started to use sex to fill the ugly emptiness of his self-imposed guruship. It seems he spent a lot of time sitting around watching TV and figuring out what girl he could have next.

In SA we've been treated to eye witness accounts from women who reported the whining he did on the telephone at all hours of the night to convince them he loved them, needed them in his group to complete it, and that they should leave their current life and move out to be with him. We've had reports of tantrums in classes because he couldn't get the woman he currently wanted, attempts to pull clothes off women, and promotions or demotions according to sexual performance.

>What hard evidence is there? Names need not be mentioned or specific circumstances?.

Plenty. I think I gave enough details. Look, you're idol is just an empty guru. He used brainwashing techniques to create a pack of zombees who keep coming over here to save his reputation. Lose self-importance = submit to carlos. Erase personal history = give up your support system and become dependant on Carlos. Assume responsibility = do as Carlos says. Use death as an advisor = believe that you will live forever if you follow Carlos. Disrupting routines = being available for Carlos sexually at any time.

>On the SA list is there hard evidence? Names dates, locations?

Yes. We're tired of it over there. It isn't even an issue anymore. I wouldn't even get a response to this post over there. It's really really old news. At this point, people are more interested in tracing where Carlos gathered his techniques from. There are some interesting posts over there about the chinese word Yi, which often translates to "intent". Howard uses the word a lot, Carlos was exposed to it repeatedly as a concept before he introduced it in his books.

>This is presented as a "you would have to have been there" scenario. If it is you should stop talking about it. Because it's all here say. Don't ask people to believe heresay.

Maybe you can convince Corey to let you review the SA past posts. Besides, what is it you want to believe? There's no reason to believe Carlos, the techniques work poorly and the workshops are filled with vain, empty groupees. The main effect is a cultlike high that comes from a bunch of people telling each other they are flying high and will rise above everyone else. It's more religious than a church revival.

>The quality of what you are writing Dan says alot about your horniness in the classes. That makes what you say suspect. Was your perception of the events objective? Not if you were as horny as you mentioned.

What on earth are you talking about? I haven't had sex in 5 years, and only a couple of times in the last 10.

You couldn't have heard Carlos speak very much or you wouldn't misunderstand a simple dirty joke so easily. I guess I'm still a cult follower because my personality is a lot like Carlos' when it comes to sex humour.

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Re: cognitive loops
From: Scott
Date: 11/29/99

In Wilhelm Reich's, "The Psychology of Fascism", he talks about how the best way to control a mass of people is to control their sexual habits. He was referring to the Catholic church, I believe. If Don Juan was correct, that all of our power is in our sexuality then the above makes a lot of sense.

I think I made the mistake of believing that Carlos was different from other guru types. For example, at one of the workshops where he 'demolished' the chac mools because of their stanky self-importance I remember thinking, 'see, this guy is the real deal, he wouldn't make such a public issue out of this if he wasn't walking the walk...'.

Live and learn. Oh well, one of the upsides is that any of us who were modifying our behaviour based on what Carlos said can now have as much sex as they want!

Scott

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Re: cognitive loops
From: Calixto
Date: 11/30/99

Scott said:

"I think I made the mistake of believing that Carlos was different from other guru types. For example, at one of the workshops where he 'demolished' the chac mools because of their stanky self-importance I remember thinking, 'see, this guy is the real deal, he wouldn't make such a public issue out of this if he wasn't walking the walk...'. "

My take on that is that it was HIS self-importance on display. I believe some of his semi-senile behavior got seriously challenged at one point (Corey, did you record what all he said about it?). The telling thing to me is that he didn't make it stick. Not really. For a while after he took the Chacmools down, IMO, the Tensegrity instruction really sucked. And it didn't pick up again, IMO, until he put back the Chacmools (within a couple of weeks, calling them "Pathfinders" then "Trackers", but whatever --- the best instruction continued to be done by Kylie in spite of the way CC would rag on her in kind of a mean-spirited way with fair frequency).

Just my take. I was there.

-C.

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Re: cognitive loops
From: Neo Binedell
Date: 12/2/99

Why does it matter? I don't care if CC was a depraved lunatic. He wrote his books, that's about all I care about CC and what HE gets up to ( or got ). I take what I need from his works, absorb what is useful to me, and move on.

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tastes great-less filling tastes great-less filling!
From: rd
Date: 11/27/99

I had a belief thanks to CC's books, a belief that the "other world" was somehow better than this one - and thus something to strive for. (Even taisha said when asked about why go to other worlds(?): "What's so great about this one? Not much..." Hmmm. Jeez!) What I have come away since experiencing other realities and heightened awarenesses - is little more than, if nothing else, we shouldn't be stuck on the one radio station we are stuck on. The other stations sure are different - but better? Mmm. I haven't found one that's better. Different is fun and good. But better? The only thing that makes them better is that they're different. And to me that's fun. But they're not inherently better, as far as I've experienced. That makes this reality appear way too inferior. This one is a magical and weird station that's just as magical and weird as the others. And when we do get profound insights and knowledge, well, that's the radio itself (us) learning. But learning and insights are not an inherent component of that new world. It's a by-product of the shift of the AP as the shift is remembered and reinterpreted when it snaps back.

I mention this because I think it makes a case for the cult question re: Carlos and the others; in that they did seem to promise a better world than this one. And I think it's easy to forget the impropriety of such a claim while you are learning "great" things. learning them

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Julius and Grant
From: Biff
Date: 11/28/99

Can someone tell me some information on Grant and Julius, who they are what their background was, where they came from and what they are doing now. Is Julius also Tracy Kramer?

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Re: Julius and Grant
From: greggabi@aol.com
Date: 12/7/99

I met Grant (and Fabricio and Talia) in the private classes, before they were known by those names. Grant was coming to L.A. all the way from the bay area, just to attend, so his motivation was strong, and he was available when Talia and Fabricio needed to fill the niches to make Cleargreen.

Greg

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Intent / New Practices and Ceremonies
From: Aurelius
Date: 11/28/99

Under my interpretation of Sheldrake's theory of morphic resonance (chreodes), (assuming he, and I, are correct) -- Intent is at the service of everyone all the time. Therefore it is nonsense for anyone to claim ownership of shamanic reality.

Knowledge of specific bodily energy flows, assuming their existence in a consistent form, cannot be faked. But as far as developing new techniques and ceremonies, the message I'm getting is "knock yourself out." The only thing required to setup a new pattern of intent is consistent, sustained repetition of something that is at least slightly physical (words, moods, actions) -- hopefully with enough detachment and abandon that it does not become imbued with the "mood of the crappy apprentices" (self-pity, despair, insecurity, greed, paranoia, frustration, self centeredness, etc.)

I suggest the following exercise, which I have been practicing in a whimsical, not-doing sort of way for many years --

1. Pick or devise ANY compact sequence of words, actions, and feelings that appeals to you. Literal or even symbolic meaning is optional.

2. Perform this ritual or incantation repeatedly over a long period of time, in a totally relaxed state of personal power and self confidence, as if talking to something -- via words, movements, or both -- that is your friend.

Some kind of meaning to the words helps, because you feel less stupid saying them out loud. I find partially meaningful phrases, or mangled words from another language to be very effective, because their meaning remains open ended, and will shift as moods flow over you.

3. Through your feelings, your own link to intent, imbue this "set of actions" with the purest sense of your own personal purpose (free of baggage, concerns, or insecurities) as an offering to the Spirit.

Bingo. You have just created your own personal magical ceremony. Or in my view, you have set up a pattern of morphic resonance (dimensionless probability structure) that your energy field can hook back into at will. When you invoke it again, you can re-enter the state more quickly, and the resulting confidence and power allows you to feel your own personal intent more deeply, plowing the furrow deeper each time you repeat it. It may take months to take hold, or you may feel it immediately.

Your pattern exists everywhere and nowhere, so it can be shared. You and some friends can devise one together. Or you can give someone the key to enter your pattern, though you might not like what they do to it, if they extend it in an odd way, or imbue it with a different mood. Because intent is infinitely malleable, there is no limit to how complex or deeply nested these patterns can become. (Needless to say, be careful, because Power can be dangerous if mishandled.)

In light of this, it seems proper NOT to imitate other people's ceremonies, especially with (to them) alien moods and desires, because if you succeed in hooking them, the main effect will be to trash their cultural heritage. Also I don't condone CG lying, but their fabricating new passes can work, and even give great results if large numbers of people do them with great feelings. (Let us all pray to Jesus together. Religions are franchised providers of rituals.) However, I imagine formal Tensegrity is a shambles at the moment, and I believe it is mainly about us, not ancient people. You may be able to do just as well on your own.

Sometime I can give you my theory behind all this, which is mostly a series of lemmas about Infinity and complexity, and the difficulty of getting any kind of grip on them.

Aurelius

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Re: Intent / New Practices and Ceremonies
From: greggabi@aol.com
Date: 12/8/99

Aurelius writes:

"Intent is at the service of everyone all the time. Therefore it is nonsense to claim ownership of shamanic reality."

Cleargreen does... they even sell it. (grin)

I might add that we are at the service of Intent all the time... but I only say this because a more passive observational attitude or approach has greater appeal for me.

Even though being neither an intellect nor much of a book reader... I agree wholeheartedly with the attitude of your approach.

We are on our own to explore as we wish...

I greatly enjoy experimenting (no drugs) with all sorts of internal proceedures... but WITHOUT words...

Little made up breathing exercises, awareness, relaxation, observing thought and emotion, diet and sleep changes... and have simple "ceremonies" I try to just to SEE what happens.

I have lost interest in reading the explanations of others as what is *supposed* to happen, and God save me from the *whys*... but I enjoyed reading about your open architecture approach because I use the same...

...because the REAL fun is having as fresh of an approach as possible... and NOT knowing or having expectations or explanations as to what is *going* to happen...

Greg

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Witches Located!
From: Mickey
Date: 11/28/99

In October I received a tip from a mysterious caller, a dame with a sexy voice who sounded like she had her Mason-Dixon lines crossed all in the right places. She gave me a tip about a very hush, hush secret meeting to be held in Mexico. She said something "big" was gonna happen.

She gave me a secret name and a secret password and told me to go to a place south of the border called Las Canones de la Virgen in Central Mexico near Queretaro. I was to wait at the place where the dirt road leading to the canyon veers off from the main highway. Only now can I tell this story. You see, I am a private investigator. A PI, a dick, a gumshoe.

After I got a letter with 5 thousand smackers from an unknown source and a one way ticket to Mexico City (Why one way? I pondered) I went to the appointed -not so easy to get to place- and waited exactly as she told me. Finally a taxi pulled up and 3 hooded people got out of a car. I couldn’t see their faces, only their shapes. And…I liked the shapes I was seeing. I told them my password and name. They nodded to each other so I nodded back. It was the right thing to do. We all nodded at each other. This went on for over an hour and a half. My neck started to hurt so I stopped nodding. Suddenly they started walking; walking in complete silence with their fingers curled up. I figured it was some kind of new dance. They must have had headphones under those hoods, I thought. After two hours of walking up a dirt road to nowhere we arrived at the canyon. On the other side of the canyon, in the middle of the desert wilderness I saw a great big pyramid. Like the kind in Egypt or somethin? I paused to gape. Suddenly we were surrounded by a pack of wild dogs; they began barking in unison. Exactly at the same time in precise intervals. Weird, I thought. I started to run but one of the dogs (the largest) blocked my path baring his pearly whites. Just as I was about to pull out my Smith and Wesson give him a little chin music and do a little lead filling dental work on some of his more prominent cavities, a man on a white horse galloped up and quieted all the dogs down. He nodded to the others. They all looked at me. I nodded. Even the dogs nodded. It was a magical. We nodded in complete silence for another hour and a half. Finally the vaquero spoke in Spanish to one of the other three. It was a French dame who later turned out to be named named Agnes. He said this is the vicinity of where the witches are staying. I understood him to say a mysterious American woman owns all the land in the area and that he, Pedro Roberto Miguel Rodriguez Antonio Gonazlez Madrazo Cervantes Chimelo was a vaquero-sorcerer. He said he was a chalk mule. It was his job to patrol the area.He took us down into the valley and we crossed a small arroyo. It was beautiful. So were the two of the three dames. But I was there on business. The vaquero told us this stream was an ancient power stream where the most powerful sorcerers in all of Mexico did their laundry. He asked the three dames to try it out, take their clothes off, whiter whites and redder reds, he said. They began nodding at him…This could get interesting I thought.Just as things were getting interesting, a sudden flash of blinding light appeared at the tip of the pyramid above us. I looked up and saw the lord Jesus with Carlos Castaneda at his side. Carlos was wearing a windbreaker; holding a note pad and looking fit as a fiddle. At the base of the pyramid I could see Carlos Tiggs milling about with Bruce Wagner, Harry Shearer and the drummer from Motor Head. They were all drinking from Starbucks cups and eating almond raisin biscottis.

The Lord Jesus lifted us up from the valley to a place directly in front of the pyramid. I stood next to Harry and Carol. I asked Harry for his autograph. "Not now" he said. "Maybe later". We all looked up at gurgling Jesus who was clearing his throat.

The following is the actual transcript:

Jesus: Can you hear me down there?... I don’t think this mike’s on Carlos…Carlos: You doan nee a mike. Just starr talking. Thees is a bery fortooitus even.

Jesus: Ok, good. Now lets see?what’s the name of this town?Carlos: It's nah a toan. Your in Mexico,

Jesus: Mexico?

Carlos: Lorr.., yore announcing the announcement of our join secon coming…remember?Jesus: Joint, you mean joint not join.

Carlos: Whatever…Where is Doe Jua when you nee him?

Jesus : Don Hoe you mean Don Hoe don’t ya. Yeah. A little intro music wouldn't hurt.Carlos: Pleeze!

Jesus : Oh yeah! Ok, Right. Ok then. How’s everybody doin? Are you havin?a good time?Carlos: JESUS!

Jesus: JESUS? Jesus what?

Carlos: Jesus Chrise for Chrise sakes!

Jesus; Jesus Christ? I don’t understand you sometimes.Carlos: Starr talkin?abouw sumting. Yoo soun lyke somkinda stan up comic or sunting.Jesus: Right. Um…Uh?Well, you …you people are the uh chosen people and uh …You see Carlos here has convinced me to join forces with him he is uh…Carlos: A ling a ling to infeentee.

Jesus: A ling?.

Carol: Screaming: A link! A link you dumb ass!

Carlos: Yes!

Jesus: Oh! So I’m a dumb ass now all of a sudden?Carlos: No a ling.

Carol: You’re a dumb ass link...now get on with it…Jesus: Look Carlos. ?I don’t want to do this!.I don’t like the way I’m being treated. I don’t like the way this is going ?Anyway this is just not my style. It’s just not me. I don’t want to be insulted by?I know I agreed and everything but it? I dunno it just…Carlos: I knuw I cund depen on yoo.

Carol: Listen you son of a bitch! Your going to do it the way we planned or I’m coming up there and cut off your…Carlos: Carol, NO!

Jesus: Are you talking to me? Are you talkin to me. I don’t see anybody else you could be talkin to…Carol: Yes I’m talking to you , you’re the only son of a bitch up there.Jesus ?I mean, unlike you, my mother was so a virgin. Just cause she never married doesn’t make me a bad person. Besides, it happened a long time ago?and it she was immaculate and all that.Carol: Youv’ve done it again Carlos! How could you screw this one up! All of our planning, all our years of work. Why did you pick HIM! (pointing at Jesus)Carlos: Becowse he is de onlee won day will leesten to. I tole you that.befour.

Suddenly I found myself back at my desk in LA. Had it all been a dream? Was it possible that I was in two places at once? And who was this mysterious caller. What about that pyramid, the vaquero and the valley- do they really exist? Was it the real Jesus? I guess I’ll have to hire a better PI than me to find out.\

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trash question for GG
From: John L.
Date: 12/1/99

This might be a little off topic; but just what did you find in CC's trash? If you grabbed trash bags for over a year from a house with several people living in it, there must have been a large amount of material. Do you really have a warehouse for it? When everybody split from the house it must have been a trash bonanza. Who owns/lives in the house now?

If you don't want to give a long explanation of you trash knowledge, then just tell us the way secret stuff...Thank you.

P.S. Tigre seems to have finally found your picture site.

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Re: trash question for GG
From: greggabi@aol.com
Date: 12/2/99

You are right... the sheer bulk of the trash was a real logistics challenge.

So what did we find... and find out?:

Nothing earth shattering or any more scandalous than Florinda driving the pickup truck...

First, they really did not care about this world... they did not recycle... their yellow recycle bin usually just had a couple of bottles and a few newspapers... so we separated out the recyclables and put them into the system.

Then there was the garbage, which consisted mostly of meat bones and egg shells. Jeez... they ate a LOT of protein.

Someone consistently drank diet Pepsi. Someone ate german chocolate. Someone was absolutely OBSESSED with feminine hygiene. Someone spent the vast majority of their time doing crossword puzzles, and anagrams. Someone liked to draw doodles and cartoon characters. Someone also read magazines alot and underlined lots of words and phrases. Someones LOVED to shop... expensive stuff from the price tags we found. Lots of movie ticket stubs, too. Whenever they threw away clothing, they almost (almost!) cut up everything.

We burned the flammable stuff in a wood burning stove while we sorted, usually most of the night. (Tuesday was our trash pickup night when they would leave the containers out on the street.)

They threw out a lot of useful common household items. We have film of Carlos trimming a tree outside his yard with some red handled clippers. One day they threw them out along with a lot of other small gardening stuff... which was a sure sign they were not going to be doing any more gardening there. We use the implements in our garden.

Someone was diabetic... we found some insulin syringes. Someone took menopause hormones.

We found one of the now famous Vegas marriage certificates (Bruce Wagner/Carol Tiggs). Also an acupuncture school certificate of Carol's.

Aerin, Darian, Nyei, Reni, and possibly Hayley lived there just after Carlos died, but that was quite a while ago.

So Tigre finally found the pictures?... Thanks for telling us. I'll guarantee you that most of the Trackers and Elements never saw Carlos when he was ill. We filmed Florinda ushering all the Elements away so no one would see Carlos arriving at the house a few minutes later.

Greg

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Re: trash question for GG
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 12/2/99

That kind of info is actually very revealing. Ordinary people get bored and fill their time with movies, cross word puzzles, and the like. Sorcerers who navigate daily into infinity shouldn't be running in to boredom problems like that.

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Re: trash question for GG
From: greggabi@aol.com
Date: 12/3/99

Hi Dan,

We are pretty sure the wordplay stuff was generated by Mary Joan Barker... who had LOTS of time on her hands and had it up to here...(gesture of hand at level of throat)... with infinity...

Greg

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