Sustained Reaction


Sustained Reaction Archive - Page 8

Archive Message Index

Trip to hell in dreaming - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 11/18/99
Re: Trip to hell in dreaming - From: Sandy McIntosh - Date: 11/18/99
Re: Trip to hell in dreaming - From: Calixto - Date: 11/18/99
Re: Trip to hell in dreaming - From: Anaid - Date: 11/18/99
Re: Trip to hell in dreaming - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 11/19/99
Re: Trip to hell in dreaming - From: Ahmo - Date: 11/19/99
Re: Trip to hell in dreaming - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 11/19/99
Re: Trip to hell in dreaming - From: Calixto - Date: 11/19/99
Re: Trip to hell in dreaming - From: Ahmo - Date: 11/20/99
Re: Trip to hell in dreaming - From: Corey - Date: 11/20/99
Re: Trip to hell in dreaming - From: Caffeine = sleep paralysis awareness? - Date: 11/20/99
Re: Trip to hell in dreaming - From: Anaid - Date: 11/21/99
Re: Trip to hell in dreaming - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 11/22/99
Re: dream pussy - From: Adelina Cerritos - Date: 11/19/99
Re: dream pussy - From: rdm - Date: 11/19/99
Re: dream pussy - From: Adelina Cerritos - Date: 11/20/99
100 Billion Galaxies - From: aurelius - Date: 11/19/99
seeing practicalities - From: rdm - Date: 11/19/99
Re: seeing practicalities - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 11/20/99
Re: seeing practicalities - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 11/20/99
Re: seeing practicalities - From: rdm - Date: 11/20/99
Re: seeing practicalities - From: rdm - Date: 11/20/99
earth - clasp - From: rdm - Date: 11/19/99
Re: earth - clasp - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 11/22/99
Question for Disgruntled Disciples - From: Badger - Date: 11/20/99
Re: Question for Disgruntled Disciples - From: gabi - Date: 11/22/99
Disgruntled types - From: Bernie - Date: 11/21/99
2nd shift - From: rdm - Date: 11/21/99
Re: 2nd shift - From: Calixto - Date: 11/24/99
Not-doing verified by researcher - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 11/22/99
Re: Not-doing verified by researcher - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 11/22/99
Re: Calling KEVIN! The BIG BUCK$ *are* available! - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 11/23/99
mass suicide? - From: erik grafstrom - Date: 11/22/99
Re: Castaneda was a sorcerer: a muddled message - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 11/23/99
Re: mass suicide? - From: A Fool - Date: 11/23/99
Re: mass suicide? - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 11/23/99
Re: mass suicide? - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 11/24/99
Re: mass suicide? - From: Ahmo - Date: 11/24/99
Re: mass suicide? - From: A Fool - Date: 11/24/99
Re: mass suicide? - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 11/24/99
Re: Not-doing verified by researcher - From: Calixto - Date: 11/24/99
Re: Not-doing verified by researcher - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 11/24/99
Cleargreen guilt of law violation - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 11/22/99
Re: Cleargreen guilt of law violation - From: Anaid - Date: 11/22/99
Re: Cleargreen guilt of law violation - From: Corey - Date: 11/22/99
Re: Cleargreen guilt of law violation - From: Leonard Zimmerman - Date: 11/23/99
Re: Cleargreen guilt of law violation - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 11/23/99
Re: Cleargreen guilt of law violation - From: Anaid - Date: 11/23/99
Re: Cleargreen guilt of law violation - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 11/23/99
Re: Cleargreen guilt of law violation - From: NP - Date: 11/22/99
Re: Cleargreen guilt of law violation - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 11/23/99
Re: Cleargreen guilt of law violation - From: Ahmo - Date: 11/23/99
I'm not from around here - From: myrddin - Date: 11/22/99
Re: I'm not from around here - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 11/23/99
Uppity Injection - From: soap - Date: 11/23/99
So is there an alternate reality or not? - From: Aurelius - Date: 11/23/99
Re: So is there an alternate reality or not? - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 11/23/99
Re: So is there an alternate reality or not? - From: Ahmo - Date: 11/23/99
Re: So is there an alternate reality or not? - From: Bernie - Date: 11/23/99
Re: So is there an alternate reality or not? - From: Anaid - Date: 11/23/99
Re: To Ahno and Anaid and amen. - From: Bernie - Date: 11/23/99
Re: So is there an alternate reality or not? - From: Leonard Zimmerman - Date: 11/23/99
People who live in dream houses shouldn't.... - From: Adelina Cerritos - Date: 11/24/99
Re: People who live in dream houses shouldn't.... - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 11/24/99
Re: People who live in dream houses shouldn't.... - From: Ahmo - Date: 11/25/99
Re: People who live in dream houses shouldn't.... - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 11/27/99
Re: People who live in dream houses shouldn't.... - From: curious - Date: 11/26/99
Re: People who live in dream houses shouldn't.... - From: Leonard Zimmerman - Date: 11/26/99
Re: People who live in dream houses shouldn't.... - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 11/27/99
Re: People who live in dream houses shouldn't.... - From: Theophilos - Date: 11/27/99
Re: So is there an alternate reality or not? - From: Aurelius - Date: 11/23/99
Re: So is there an alternate reality or not? - From: Lonnie - Date: 11/24/99
Ibs - From: rdm - Date: 11/23/99
Carlos' "blow your mind" truth. - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 11/24/99
Re: new line of sorcerers - From: rdm - Date: 11/24/99
Technique to get silent - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 11/24/99
Re: Technique to get silent - From: diana - Date: 11/27/99
Re: Technique to get silent - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 11/29/99
new line of sorcerers - From: bishop - Date: 11/24/99
Balance - From: Badger - Date: 11/24/99 - From: bishop - Date: 11/24/99
Re: night vision - From: Ahmo - Date: 11/24/99
Re: night vision - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 11/24/99
Re: night vision - From: Calixto - Date: 11/27/99
Re: night vision - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 11/27/99
Cleargreen & Castaneda's Death - From: A Fool - Date: 11/24/99
Re: Cleargreen & Castaneda's Death - From: Corey - Date: 11/24/99
Sunday Workshop - From: Biff - Date: 11/24/99
Re: Sunday Workshop - From: Corey - Date: 11/24/99
Re: Cleargreen & Castaneda's Death - From: greggabi@aol.com - Date: 11/24/99
A note on Hermeneutics - From: Lonnie - Date: 11/24/99

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Trip to hell in dreaming
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/18/99

Last night I found myself in dreaming, looked at my hands, and then stopped to consider the current plot of the dream.

Before I stopped following the cult, I would have disregarded the dream completely, picked a far off spot to get away, stared at it, and zoomed over to it. That typically removes any trace of the previous dream plot.

But this time I noticed that I was dead, and standing by about 10 other people who had died. Half were sent up some stairs, towards their "ultimate reward", and another half were being put into a boat.

I decided that heaven could wait. I wanted to see hell. I've been dying for a good horror movie, but my movie partner only wants to see foreign art movies.

I got in to the boat, which slid down a long river, falling rapidly into the center of the earth. The sides of the river were like smooth graphite.

We arrived at the bottom, and I got out of the boat to check it out. Typically christians portray hell as a firey pit, with molten lava everywhere. But from bible studies I know it's supposed to be simply a place where people are stuck waiting for judgement. I looked up the steep walls. It was deffinately a pit. I puzzled that the pit wasn't supposed to happen until the millenia, another bit of bible trivia.

I stopped to look at my hands again, and considered zipping out of that place, to switch dreams. I found myself at the front of a line, a person was checking a list to mark off my name.

She looked at me and said, "Your name isn't on the list!"

"Of course!", I replied. I explained that I was an expert on the bible, thus there was no way I could go to hell.

"An expert!", she replied. "Those are the worst kind. Go on in."

I felt a sinking feeling. I decided I didn't want to go along with that particular plot any longer.

I turned around and focused all my attention on a distant mountain peek. It was made of the same graphite as the river wall. I could feel the "receptionist" behind me, getting ready to pull on me. I concentrated extra hard, concerned she'd grab me before I could change dreams.

I found myself zipping towards the mountain peek, but the graphite wall seemed to stretch up into infinity. I seemed to be in a bottomless pit.

Instead of landing on the spot I had picked, I diverted my gaze up, beyond the clouds hanging on the graphite wall. I zipped up and up, but no matter how high I went I could not see the top. I noticed that the graphite wall had spikes on it, like small stalagmites. I focused my gaze down to land on a spot.

The dream started to fade, but I jumped up and down, stomping on the face of the graphite ledge. It still seemed to be fading, so I began to sing a loud song. I made up lyrics which didn't rhyme. It sounded good, but I struggled to get it rhyme, without success.

A voice told me that rhyming was a creation of the shakespearian era, and that in ancient times it hadn't occurred to anyone to rhyme.

I began to wonder about the comment, was it true? The dream fully stabilized.

The view of the bottomless pit was incredible! I could see an infinity of the deep valley, with enormous graphite walls surrounding it and streatching up farther than I could imagine.

Something on the graphite wall started to move. It was an enormous demon, made out of the same graphite material. He gave off an eery feeling, I instinctively knew he guarded against escapes.

I didn't have time for a dream change. The horrible demon was about to roll over me and crush me. Believing I had no other way out, I woke up, went to the kitchen, and had a bananna.

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Re: Trip to hell in dreaming
From: Sandy McIntosh
Date: 11/18/99

I often get trapped in a dream like that (not necessarily about hell, but something else as fascinating) when I take it more seriously than I know it deserves. Then it is as if the dream begins to take *me* seriously and won't let go.

Dan writes: "A voice told me that rhyming was a creation of the shakespearian era, and that in ancient times it hadn't occurred to anyone to rhyme."

The kind of rhyming we associate with Shakespeare developed about one hundred years before. Prior to that Old English poetry had its own rhythmical scheme where the lines broke in the middle. So you're almost correct, but only about poetry in modern English--which reminds me of CC's dream that iridium was the hardest substance in the world, which I understand it isn't.

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Re: Trip to hell in dreaming
From: Calixto
Date: 11/18/99

No surprise that your brain created a cool version of hell, Dan.

"Although it was used in ancient East Asian poetry, rhyme was practically unknown to the ancient Greeks and Romans. With the decline of the classical quantitative meters and the substitution of accentual meters, rhyme began to develop, especially in the sacred Latin poetry of the early Christian church. In the Middle Ages, end rhyme (rhyme at the end of a line), assonance (repetition of related vowel sounds), and alliteration (repetition of consonants, particularly at the beginning of words) were predominant in vernacular verse. After 1300 rhyme came to be the outstanding metrical mark of poetry until the introduction of blank verse in the 16th cent."

-Columbia on-line encyclopedia

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Re: Trip to hell in dreaming
From: Anaid
Date: 11/18/99

Wow. You said in an earlier post that you still have not remembered to turn around and look at your physical body asleep on the bed when you are dreaming. And then about being able to have the time of your 'dreaming' match the actual time of day it is when you lay down to sleep, I think you said that 'if you look for sunlight you'll find it'. But I think that until you actually can face that body lying there on the bed and look at it, and have it very closely resemble your "real physical body", you have not yet passed that particular gate of dreaming, and so I'm not sure that you can do the kind of thing that can be 'validated in the real world' until that happens. You wouldn't be looking for sunlight necessarily, you'd be looking for your watch or a clock! Well, I mean I'm going by what Castaneda wrote in the books...from my own experience I have done pretty much the same things as you mention, looking at my hands, changing dreams, flying a lot. I was wondering, do you feel a very, very, very strong vibration go thru your body sometimes when you are going into a certain kind of dreaming? Are you familiar with what's called 'awareness during sleep paralysis'? I kind of have that happen sometimes, I call it getting 'stuck', any then if I can stand it long enough to "go with it" I usually begin to see a shadow of a limb that has a 'ghostly' appearance emerge...but just as I'm about to turn around and I know that it's my physical body lying there behind me, I start to scream my head off and usually manage to wake myself up that way. I believe the same thing happened to Carlos and Don Juan said he had to recapitulate more or it would just keep happening...anyway, I'm kinda rambling all over the place, but the funny thing is, when I wrote to you and asked if you had seen your body yesterday, I would have sworn that you were gonna have a really strange 'dreaming' night...but I thought you might have remembered to turn around and look at your body instead of going to hell. 'naid.

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Re: Trip to hell in dreaming
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/19/99

Yea, that dream paralysis stuff is the dreadful part. It's like you get caught halfway, and it feels awful. I've learned to roll out of it, but it's really difficult.

I get other kinds of strong dreaming sensations in other different situations. That's why I don't put much stock in people who claim they made up new tensegrity techniques in dreaming. If you look for a strong feeling, you'll feel a strong feeling. To say something happens spontaneously is to ignore the echos of expectations, something that you get really familiar with by practice.

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Re: Trip to hell in dreaming
From: Ahmo
Date: 11/19/99

I once had a fever dream of wrestling some kind of constrictor snake, huge like a python or a boa, that had me wrapped up in its coils. The snake was hot, burning, and when I could look around, it looked like a pretty good rendition of a christian hell. The odd thing about this dream was that I would wake up after much struggling and then get pulled right back in to the same dream right were I left off, still wrestling the hot snake. It seemed endless as I was pulled back in about 4-5 times. Anyone had the experience of a dream dragging you back in, rather than going back to it intentionally? Maybe in a state of good health! But I guess sickness is a shift in perception none-the-less.

Best regards

Ahmo

ps- I'm surprised satan hasn't replied 8^p

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Re: Trip to hell in dreaming
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/19/99

I've had that mostly when ill. But when not ill it's not uncommon for unpleasant elements from dreams to manifest themselves again even after I switch dreams.

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Re: Trip to hell in dreaming
From: Calixto
Date: 11/19/99

Dan:

Yea, that dream paralysis stuff is the dreadful part. It's like you get caught halfway, and it feels awful. I've learned to roll out of it, but it's really difficult.

Sleep paralysis being experienced in lucid dreaming is very common in the sleep labs (and that stands to reason, as the centers of the brain which handle motor skills are paralyzed during dreaming to prevent an animal from injuring itself by acting out its dreams).

Something worth noting about it is that some people find the experience of being aware of sleep paralysis annoying or terrifying or painful, while other people find it exhilarating or ecstatic and launch themselves into all manner of fun and dramatic experiences over it. I would submit that it is like anything else in dreaming, subject to one's beliefs and expecations...

Personally, I now usually have rather neutral feeling toward it, sort of like "oh, that again", and if I just relax completely and try to go back into dreaming I can usually do that pretty easily. I used to try to struggle to move, and see the phantom limb phenomena and stuff --- in fact I even got completely "out" of my body a few times (of course I was not really out of it - and such experiences are natural because the brain harbors all manner of meticulous "programs" about our body positions), but when I did that I found that I would just wind up back in my paralyzed body again within a few minutes, so I opted in the end for using it as just another way to change the dreaming scene.

Dan:

"I get other kinds of strong dreaming sensations in other different situations. That's why I don't put much stock in people who claim they made up new tensegrity techniques in dreaming. If you look for a strong feeling, you'll feel a strong feeling. To say something happens spontaneously is to ignore the echos of expectations, something that you get really familiar with by practice. "

I agree completely. I arrived at several of my own movements in dreaming. They are just movements. I did them for a while until the novelty wore off, but I don't even bother practicing them anymore (in fact, I no longer even recall what some of them were ... ). Who cares about a few movements when you can do *anything you want*? I had to realize that it was not some special cosmic experience --- it was all happening in my own brain, in my own consciousness, for my own reasons --- and I set the rules (within the parameters laid down by the structures of life of course). But I am just another tiny little speck in this universe, so I don't go getting cosmic delusions of grandeur about my own little entertaining adventures in consciousness, and setting up my own "rules" about how it all must be done, like CC did.

-C.

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Re: Trip to hell in dreaming
From: Ahmo
Date: 11/20/99

Telepathy, now that is something I have had proved to me, maybe the story will give some hope. One thing I can absolutely say I learnt from my trips to rural sonora was that my thoughts are not private, and may not be my own at times, I found that the critical assumption to confront is these situations. The experience that did it was, hanging out in the backyard of a witch's house leaning against the tree, and pondering three distinct things that were private and not shared with anyone verbally. on a subsequent trip while speaking to the witch, I mention one of the phrases that was in my thoughts that day and she said "oh! so that was you!" and proceded to list the other things I had thought about. Terrified I asked her how she knew and she said she had read it off the trees. I'm not sure if it was luch, but I found that telepathy is pretty common in the parts of mexico I had been to, and fairly blatent. Of course I could have been expecting it, but CC doesn't make a big deal about it. I have heard that there are different ways people can read your thoughts, the most frowned upon is of having an IB tell you. If you believe in that sort of thing. But I have found the notion that your thoughts are not your own private property, extremely challenging, and has given rise to some interesting, er, Thoughts?

Ahmo

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Re: Trip to hell in dreaming
From: Corey
Date: 11/20/99

I used to experience sleep paralysis a lot when I used to drink large quantites of coffee. I often found it very scary and upsetting. When I attended LaBerge's lucid dreaming workshop at Stanford, however, I learned that sleep paralysis almost always precedes a REM period, so that if one just relaxes and tries to remain aware during the paralysis, one can use it as a signal to go right into "dreaming."

Fortunately, or unfortunately for my "dreaming," when I went off caffeine (I'm down to one morning cup of green tea), I quit experiencing sleep paralysis.

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Re: Trip to hell in dreaming
From: Caffeine = sleep paralysis awareness?
Date: 11/20/99

I agree Corey. I used to experience sleep paralysis more often when I drank lots of coffee. Carlos told us not to, I stopped altogether, and I didn't have the sleep paralysis scares anymore. I just thought I'd gotten better at dreaming.

Anyone else think there's a link with caffeine?

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Re: Trip to hell in dreaming
From: Anaid
Date: 11/21/99

I think they might be different, at least for me. I have a memory from my childhood, around the ages of five thru seven, of waking up in the middle of the night and feeling an incredible sense of pressure, physical or almost 'psychic' pressure, for lack of a better word. I couldn't move and everything seemed black and there was this sense of 'eternity'...of course I'm trying to describe a 'feeling' now, in retrospect, so I'm using words that I never would have thought to use at five...anyway, the other thing, the 'awareness during sleep paralysis' is something that happens to me a lot. Almost all the time it starts out, or it includes near the start, a fierce 'vibration', and I don't mean that in the sense of a 'vibe', I mean I feel this...I guess it's like someone took a thousand tuning forks and struck them all and they were attached to your body...actually it feels stronger then that, but I am not 'phsyically' shaking...it's really hard to describe it ...and while it is happening, and by the way it sort of moves - the vibration - and it also cycles thru increases and decreases, and I am just lying there and I am completely aware, I mean, it's just like I'm awake, I'm *me* and I am thinking, and I'm thinking, oh my god, I can't MOVE! and I can't move at all, and usually I can't see at the start. But then I begin to get glimpses of the room, and sometimes the room will clear up, and it will almost always be the room I am actually in. And then if I can 'go with it' and try to move my arm, try really hard, I will begin to see a 'ghost' arm appear...but it's very frightening because you feel "stuck" in some way, like there is a "pull" on you, and you don't know if you will ever be able to "wake up" even though you are THINKING and AWARE, so you are kind of "awake'. Anyway, sometimes it will change over to "dreaming", and sometimes I manage to pull up out of my body and start to turn, and I catch a glimpse of something on the bed, and I just start to SCREAM my head off, and usually at that point I just find myself in bed, awake, in mid scream. But I have a really really clear memory of the time during my childhood in that blackish "pressure" world, and somehow at least I feel that they are two different "worlds". Anaid.

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Re: Trip to hell in dreaming
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/22/99

Well, aparently (according to the research Calixto reports on often), sleep paralysis happens many times a night, as a safeguard for dreaming. I saw a TV report on someone who was missing that paralysis, it was a major problem in his life.

But when we talk about it here I believe it's usually discussing the awful feeling of not being able to move, while lying on your bed and not really feeling you are asleep. For me it's usually in combination with a dreaming state which is an exact copy of my room. so I believe at the time that I'm just lying there unable to move, but really I'm in a dreaming copy. Typically something electric is coming and I want to get up to avoid it's presense, but can't.

It's a timeless state in that you can drift in and out of it without realizing it.

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Re: dream pussy
From: Adelina Cerritos
Date: 11/19/99

Your post is so laden with self congratulations and manliness. Tell me, why didn't you approach (it seems you didn't) this woman in the bookstore. Then you would have found something out.

Just like you could have found something out if you approached and or confronted Carlos Castaneda and friends with a sense of physical tension that you must have experienced being around him (them). A sense that something was not quite right or out of place. These are real missed opportunities. Not acts of bravery. They are examples of caving into fear. Collapsing in fear is a choice one makes as a way of surrendering. Surrender to the unknown instead of confronting it. The snakes and graphite walls will never go away in waking life. Neither will the blondes. This opportunity won't repeat.

A dream that is remembered has less value if it is not made use of. It is the physical sensation you felt in the dream, not the contents that you should be looking for during the day. When you reexperience that feeling you should act in a beneficial way.

Too brag about what you do in your dreams as Dan is sometimes doing is empty.

Good luck on your next screenplay.

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Re: dream pussy
From: rdm
Date: 11/19/99

re: my self congratulatoriness and manliness. So true. I'm just your typical ball scratching, beer drinking neanderthal.

Re: the second issue, truth is, I've aproached people in the past about such things and all that did was scare them. Recently I saw a white funnel of energy coming out of a woman's head and told her about it - and that didn't go over too well. She ran away and thinks I'm a nut. Sometimes it's best to keep quiet. What was I supposed to say, "Hi. Remember me? We fucked like bunnies last night." ?? Not only that - but my immediate assumption was that she was a phantom creation in the dream. I was really just making an easy joke about the fact that she had a Victoria's Secret bag. But if the oportunity presents itself again, I may very well approach her. Keep in mind, "the worst thing you can do is to confront our fellow men bluntly." be that as it may, I try not to walk up to total strangers and ask them if they remember me from last night's dream. Maybe you're different.

Regarding confronting Carlos - I did indeed confront Carlos et al. numerous times. Believe me, I was never afraid. In fact, they acted rather afraid around me. I got the very distinct feeling that Carlos told the others not to speak with me. Nyei hung up on me once. The Chacmools, Blue Scout, Zaia, etc. all immediately left a restaurant when I was the only other one in there another time. Reni forbade me to write articles for Magical Blend. Bruce humored me with his Bruce talk - although he was pleasant enough. The German guys flat out would not even speak to me when I would talk to them. When I spoke with Florinda she always very stilted and, I dunno, walking on egg shells it seemed. Carol was always pleasant enough..but Kylie was the only one with whom I shared any kind of open, honest exchange - as superficial as it was. So, I tried - but...

Thanks for the well-wishes on the screenplay. It came at a good time.

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Re: dream pussy
From: Adelina Cerritos
Date: 11/20/99

I didn't mean you should ask her if she knows you had sex with her in your dream. Or saw a white funnel coming out of someone's head. That doesn't meann the funnel was actually there. Just becasue you saw something doesn't mean you have a right to impose that vision on the rest of the world. Your perception is exclusively your own. If it can't be shared, why mention it at all. Who wouldn't run away?

I meant you could start an ordinary conversation with her to see what might happen."Oh, that looks like an interesting book". Then you get your response and it would be registered by you. She might say "Yes it is" and walk away from you.. or continue to talk. It might be very valuable. It wouldn't have to be anything dramatic and shouldn't be.

Or she might say.... "You look familiar... didn't I have sex with you last night in one of your dreams?. Yes, yes your the one... your just like all the others, you didn't even ask me my name.

Maybe you would find out it was a simple coincidence. Why would you think it would be anything else?

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100 Billion Galaxies
From: aurelius
Date: 11/19/99

Anyone with any claim to know Spirit should, after taking a deep breath, be laughing his head off over CC's antics. Isn't this 4-Tulios on a grander scale?

Let's run some numbers. All data are rough guess-timates.

Number of galaxies in Universe = 100 billion Number of sentient planets per galaxy = 100 (conservative) Number of sentient planets in Universe = 10,000 billion. Number of parallel Universes = 10 billion* (*I think it might be ~10 ** 20, but let's be conservative.) Total sentient planets = 100,000 billion billion.

So here we are on our watery Planet, and over a 20 year period, CC managed to lie to (let's say) ~50 million people.

Has no one learned the first lesson of self-importance?? Does the Spirit give a damn if someone managed to lie to 50 million people? (And seduce women?)

From the perspective of the Infinite, I think it's rather droll. So laugh!

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seeing practicalities
From: rdm
Date: 11/19/99

dan - I find your comments about the lack of practicality in seeing fascinating and refreshing. I've only seen several times. First time the voice of seeing said, "It doesn't matter how long it takes you to learn, one year or a billion years, it only matters that you learn." On the surface one could ask, Learn what? What are you talking about? etc. etc. Pointless crap! But this insight has stuck with me and provides a very practical use (if that is the measure of anything): it calms me like you wouldn't believe and provides me with a sublime focus as best I can put it. In good times and in bad. See, for a being who doesn't know where he comes from, where he's going, or what he's doing here (learning, supposedly) I find such knowledge sublimely practical. It serves as my blankie and my magic carpet all at the same time.

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Re: seeing practicalities
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/20/99

I've been thinking something similar lately, but not sure of it. What I've been thinking is that learning is the highest human accomplishment. People attracted to Castaneda are mentally sick in some ways. I'm one of them too. The illness is easy to see. It's a sort of self-criticism gone haywire, way overboard. It's the type of person that believes there's a better and not so better way to do anything. So they go around all the time judging themselves and others according to a bizarre system of perfection that doesn't produce practical results.

I'm trying to escape that mind set. But I still have exposure to other cult members who believe, so I get to see how sickening that mind set really is.

My latest thought is what you saw. That learning is the highest accomplisment, no matter what you are learning. While you are learning the brain re-wires itself. You gain new insight. You can apply what you learn to everything.

Of course, I got the idea from Carlos (as has cleargreen a couple of workshops ago).

I wouldn't classify that type of seeing as totally useless. My seeing is more like, "When the urine like energy fluids stop flowing through the energy veins of this liver blob of light the impurities have been removed, but you have to maintain this feeling to keep up the process to completion."

Try to make use of that.

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Re: seeing practicalities
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/20/99

Hey, a question for you about your seeing.

What were the circumstances? I've had a hell of a time seeing lately and I know why, but I wonder if you have the same situation.

Were you alone, or not alone? Were you feeling any particular feelings prior to seeing? Were you sitting quietly or moving? Eyes closed or open? How much had you eaten prior, were you tired or fatigued, had you just done exercise?

Did the voice of seeing tell you that very closely, or are you translating something it said which couldn't be rendered in a language?

Also, was the voice like an alien thought or was it like a sound, or was it a mixture of both? Did you feel like responding and carrying on a conversation? How much did you notice it at the time, did it really only occur to you later on?

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Re: seeing practicalities
From: rdm
Date: 11/20/99

Dan-

At the time of the first seeing I was rather poor and had not eaten for days. I attribute that to assisting the movement of my AP - if we are in agreement that such exists. The voice was quite clear. It was not a thought per se, although it was "in my head." I experienced an extraordinary sense of timeless eternity - that I can only say is well, forgive me, but deliciously awesome. I was sitting on the floor, looking into my ratty-ass bathroom and its hideous purple fluff carpeting when for about four seconds I went into "eternity" and the voice quite clearly said what I mentioned.

As an aside, later that week as I was leaving a bar I saw through two levels of bags - plastic and paper - and "saw" an old newspaper inside that had a headline about Hitler. Well, very long story short - the paper was from 1939 and had my grandfather's obituary in it on the front page as well as several pages of my aunts on the society pages. I mention this 'cause this seemed to be an especially productive time period for such events.

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Re: seeing practicalities
From: rdm
Date: 11/20/99

Dan-

(I wish I could bring text from your post into my reply - but anyway...) to answer questions about 1) conversation - No, I didn't feel like having a conversation with the voice. I was too overwhelmed - and what's there to say? The voice was neutral I terms of male or female - but I'd give it a female caste if forced to choose. 2) exercise - I was running between 5 and 10 miles 4-5 days a week. I was also very heavily into Jane Robert's Seth books - wherein lies an enormous amount of information that corresponds to the letter with what Carlos wrote.

FWIW - Prior to this I had gone into "trances" numerous times foreseeing friend's deaths and all sorts of stuff - but never called that "seeing" because there was no accompanying voice - and no absolute certainty about the information imparted.

Lastly, I just want to share how good it feels to be "deprogrammed." The self-doubt and messiah worship I've experienced for almost 30 years was quite crippling and unnecessary. Although, ironically, while the magical passes curtailed a good deal of my unfounded guilt and self-loathing - they also reinforced my devotion to the group and their nebulous platitudes - and me being a sucker for fuzzy poetic insight I was able to incorporate these into my mindset - although never without the accompanying feeling of being somehow inferior to the - again, ironically - lofty idealities of the "warrior's way."

It feels so damn good to be "normal" again!

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earth - clasp
From: rdm
Date: 11/19/99

Wondered about two things over the years.

#1 Carlos went to great lengths saying how it was his charge to close his line of sorcerers "with a golden clasp." Lovely image, sublime idea. But what did he mean? Just how was he going to close it with a golden clasp? I thought, egotistically to be sure, perhaps that this idea was somehow reflected in the group's decision to "reveal" the Tensegrity movements to the general public. To me! Wonderful ME! But, of course, this was never mentioned as such. So the question remains, how was Carlos intending to end the line with the golden clasp? He made such a constant mention of this task, but left its particulars quite obscure for such an important issue, it seems. Perhaps I'm wrong. Did he say something I may have missed? Or was it all just implied in some nebulous fashion?

Secondly, his "attitude" (for lack of a better term) towards the earth seemed quite contradictory. On the one hand it was the being who soothed and understood our every feeling. On the other, the lines of the earth were very possessive and would keep you from leaving this plane. Furthermore, the earth was not our home but really belonged to the insect world. Just look around! he said. The earth was also mentioned as being just a stop along the way of our infinite journey. Just a stop. Not our home. Other worlds awaited us. Other "homes."

Well, if one synthesizes these two conflicting notions, I get the impression he may have been projecting some sort of inner conflict he had regarding the female of the species. Nurturing, loving and understanding on the one hand. Possessive and controlling on the other - no more than a rest stop. Or a one night stand, perhaps. Love and understanding complicated by the request for true intimacy and commitment.

Today I got the distinct impression that there was someone who changed Carlos' life to the core. And that person had sufficient authenticity from which he could build a franchise that could stand the test of his own moral scrutiny when he asked himself, "Am I doing the right thing?" (to embellish the facts and make them "ficts" as it were.) I think one of his most revealing comments about his behavior came when he described the nagual Julian - of whom he was compared to often -when he said, "He didn't give a plugged nickel about any of them." I think it may have been his way of tipping his hand to those so concerned - just like his TIME interview when he said how he loved to throw around the b.s. - or how his friend said in the same article that he was a big liar - or how he was always revealing himself as unreliable - whether it was because he had an unreliable coyote ally or whatever. In his own way I think he was letting us know about his duplicity. Perhaps it was us who just didn't want to listen.

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Re: earth - clasp
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/22/99

I'm trying to enlist the help of people in SA to demonstrate what I said about Carlos talking about his worst flaws. By the way, there was a typo there. I meant to say he tried to erase his flaws by "recapitulating" them to his audience, but with the twist that he insisted a warrior wouldn't do that.

I guess between the 30 or so people from that class and the contact they had with people who spent a lot of time with Carlos we could put together a picture of his behavior.

Naturally, that won't be good enough for some people who want to hang on to the belief, but there's nothing to do about that.

The people who knew him best probably killed themselves, so maybe we'll never know.

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Question for Disgruntled Disciples
From: Badger
Date: 11/20/99

I ask the people who frequent this message board, and consider themselves ex-Castanedites, the following.

Ideally, for each of you individually, what would have been the most "impeccable" (best) way in which the "teachings of don Juan" could have been made available to the general public? Let's assume, for the sake of argument, there was a "don Juan" that Castaneda wrote those books about and, naturally, a "Warrior's Way."

It's evident that going in, all of you believed in the "teachings" (and probably read the books for many years). You even sought "personal" (well, maybe more like small group) instruction when given the opportunity.

But, since now everything is soured because of the revelations within this website, what are the conditions in your mind that, had they been met, would have allowed you not only to continue with Castaneda's teachings, but have become a "warrior" by now.

Or I could ask, how would "don Juan" have handled the the task?

Please answer as candidly as you can.

Remember I said "ideally."

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Re: Question for Disgruntled Disciples
From: gabi
Date: 11/22/99

Ideally I would have liked to see Carlos zip rainbow-serpent-fashion pure energy into the midnightsky. For myself I do not have that goal. But the magic would have been the culmination of his efforts. Carlos taught until 1993-94 for free in small groups. In mid-1995 he started Cleargreen asking real money for well organised seminars. Something he had relentlessly criticised until 1995. If he would have stayed with his original concept, maybe selling videos of tensegrity, and not promise everybody close to him, to take them with him, I would have more respect for him now. But besides all that I got out of the experience with Carlos what I wanted anyways. An inner direction which makes me basically independent from any teacher, guru, ideology. In some aspects it is more radical than Carlos'.

Everybody has to find their own way. Use anything that might be helpful. Define what you want for yourself. But in all that do not push yourself into insanity. Take it or leave it. Gabi

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Disgruntled types
From: Bernie
Date: 11/21/99

Ciao' There was a special tv show on cults the other night; Jim Jones, Solar Temple, David Koresh, Aum Supreme etc were shown. I sat horrified by the similarities which are apparent between these sects and Tensegrity groups. Please - I mean it - PLEASE examine what your going into. If 943 people understood what was behind Jim Jones I'm sure that mass suicide would have been prevented.

Bernie A Survivor

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2nd shift
From: rdm
Date: 11/21/99

i remember nyie asking me if i was going to leave with them. and i said i'd be leaving in the 2nd shift. she said there was no 2nd shift. and i said ok. and then i hung up. and then i knew, like she, that there was no 2nd shift.

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Re: 2nd shift
From: Calixto
Date: 11/24/99

Anaid said:

"It's just so much like Carlos in a way, though! All these weird things happen, but he still thinks it has to be sleight of hand or physcial trickery. "

Actually, CC was likely drawing on what is well-known regarding the shamans of many native cultures --- that they DO engage in sleight of hand and physical trickery. Of course, part of the effectiveness of having people *believe* in "the cure" involves not letting on that it is trickery (the more dramatic the "effect", the better the potential placebo response), but most researchers who have carefully studied the matter have been able to document that it usually (if not always) IS some sort of "sleight of hand". I'd be happy to provide quotes on this if you feel the need to see them.

I would also tend to want to make a point opposite to the one you are making about people having trouble believing in the magical. What I see just as often is that people WANT to believe in the magical, and because of this often fool themselves. They do it all the time. They simply overlook logical possibilities in favor of wanting to believe something extraordinary happened.

-C.

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Not-doing verified by researcher
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/22/99

On this morning's TV there was a news report about "mental aerobics".

It seems a researcher coined the phrase to describe the re-wiring of the brain that happens when you deliberately do different things.

He gave specific examples of things you could do as follows:

1. Close your eyes when you try to open a door with a key.

2. Turn the pictures on your desk at work upside down or set them at angles.

3. Read outloud instead of silently.

He said that unused portions of the brain (emanations???) get used as the brain tries to visualize and do the new task.

Naturally this verifies the benefit of Carlos' not-doings, but it also points out that simply taking the time to study and learn new things would be an even more concentrated way of accomplishing it.

And you wouldn't have to commit mass suicide when you're guru leader dies.

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Re: Not-doing verified by researcher
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/22/99

Actually, it's a logical conclusion. There's no proof yet, and maybe it didn't happen. But consider that Kylie promised to do so if Carlos left without her, and that Carlos has been quoted by direct witnesses several times as saying they'd take an airplane and crash it into a mountain to leave.

Then consider the disappearance of 5 of the group shortly after his death, their giving away their jewelry. And the eagle's trust fund had provisions for suicide in it in many places. There was a 100K reward for these 5 if they didn't kill themselves.

And consider the bizarre behavior of the original chacmools to see the type of thinking among cult members. Remember Nyei's bizarre speech about how much she loved the blue scout because of her alien energy? They were brainwashed to the point of believing in lies and feeling love on the basis of them. Also shortly after Castaneda's death two people told me they were considering suicide, one even going so far as to take a trip for that purpose. And within cleargreen someone is reported to gone off to do the same.

Take people, seperate them from their families, build up their egos with a fabricated world of superiority and lies, then let them down by dieing in a way that goes against everything you told them.

That's been enough to cause mass suicides in other cults.

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Re: Calling KEVIN! The BIG BUCK$ *are* available!
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/23/99

The reward is only paid to them if they "survive", not to kevin. The info will get posted up on the web page soon. I'm sure the true believers will find a way to interpret it differently.

Here's more fuel for the suicide possibility:

1. Carlos was obsessed with 2 figures that tried to deliberately die. One succeeded and was the hero of various stories. The other was thwarted, the gun was taken out of his hand. He was the chump. These 2 stories he told over and over again.

2. Carol Tiggs was implying, shortly after Carlos' death, that the blue scout had gone off to die.

3. Before the workshops Carlos had some kind of low in his attempts to direct his group. It's reported that he spent his time alternating between the couch and the bed, watching TV, in a depressed funk. He told members of cleargreen that one of the witches (flo or taisha?), who had their airplane license, had made plans to rent a plane and crash it in to a volcanoe in Hawaii.

4. The missing people have always held close to the rest of the cleargreen members. I'm sure the true believers see this as consistant warrior behavior to just disappear, but in fact these people have never done this before. It's a new thing with them. This disappearance even includes some breaking off their infrequent contact with their families. It's really unusual. Now if you buy into the argument that they are flexible warrior beings I guess it's easy to explain away.

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mass suicide?
From: erik grafstrom
Date: 11/22/99

What news is there of suicides?

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Re: Castaneda was a sorcerer: a muddled message
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/23/99

Possibly my paranoia for being on what seems like new ground to me. But here's my thinking on the side effects:

Dreaming makes you pretty unconcerned about the rest of the world. It may be because of the effort it requires, maybe it modifies brain activity. But there's deffinately a grouchiness and detached after effect. That causes you to be less productive in your regular life. I've talked with many people who have experienced this. Although I have to say that since I dropped the dubious philisophy Carlos created I haven't noticed this effect. Just a general sluggishness after a night of heavy dreaming.

But seeing is quite a different story. Who knows what's up with that. If you learned to see at will, would it really be forced schizophrenia? Maybe not. I used to worry that forcing silence might stop one's heart and breathing. That turned out to be false (who could know what part of the brain might shut down).

Typically, in philisophies or religions which emphasize seeing, people who can see are really weird, and not in a positive way. Carlos created the idea of the impeccable seer (which he didn't seem to attain), but that's not the typical scenario.

Those are the side effects I'm talking about. Withdraw from regular life, sluggishness, and possible mental illness.

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Re: mass suicide?
From: A Fool
Date: 11/23/99

There may be some understandable confusion about the difference between dying and leaving "in full awareness". We are talking about a belief system focused on retaining awareness at the moment of death, whatever causes that death. I mean, you know, Don Juan's party all jumped from a cliff.

I'm not hearing in the 10 reasons cited a direct statement from Kylie et al that they wanted to commit suicide. Facing a wall and "dying" suggests a thought process of being able to will death, so to speak, i.e., "burning".

If anyone was there when Carlos died, it would have been the people cited as potentially killing themselves. If Kylie and Tasha et al knew this was all a fake, either prior to Carlos's death or when it happened, not sensing anything remarkable, why would they then go off to kill themselves together? They might scoot, but suicide? This gets back to Anaid's comments in some other posts about"having it both ways". Either they believed and there's no reason to kill yourself or they realized it was a fraud and Carlos leaving only meant the meal ticket would be gone, move onto the next venue. Carol didn't do either.

Another thing. The consistent claim from Cleargreen has been that Carlos left in full awareness. Not that he didn't get sick. Not that he "burned". The fact that he died doesn't mean he didn't survive. Carol in her last talk spoke of the different facets of Carlos's awareness coming together at the point of death, a means of survival described in several spiritual traditions.

In fact, a case could be made that La Gorda's death--an event spoken about privately back in 1985 by Florinda as a tragedy, scared Carlos such that he was afraid to burn, even if he could.

The other possibility beside suicide if you do believe would be that some or all of the folks who have disappeared did burn. Perhaps some real evidence will turn up, or at least better evidence than what's been posted so far.

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Re: mass suicide?
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/23/99

Basically, you're halfway to rationalizing suicide in your own mind. That's the cult mindset. I'm sure the people who killed themselves down in San Diego had eloquent reasons to believe they'd be picked up by the space ship following the comet. Your reasoning is half way there.

Also, your discussion about the motives of Kylie and Talia doesn't take in to account their screwed up reasoning process. People who get out of this cult mind control see clearly how badly we've been messed up by all this. But while you're in it you can't even detect it.

My guess would be that Kylie and Talia believed it up until the last, then their mind was faced with realizing that Carlos died an ordinary death, not as he described. What they did from there is the part that's hard to predict. They might have killed themselves in order to avoid realizing the truth, a common event in cults. Or they might have waked up and become bitter and depressed for a few weeks, then gotten out of it and fled because they were ashamed of the whole mess.

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Re: mass suicide?
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/24/99

It's pretty hard to explain that kind of behavior, you're right. Still, I've had some sales people almost that bad, and they still went home and kissed their kids.

I'm thinking more of Nyei's discussion with Linda. Nyei actually argued with her that the blue scout couldn't be the age of Corey's chronology. The facts were right in front of her. She knew it was a lie! But in her own mind she came up with a justification. It CAN'T be true because the blue scout looks so young. It's like a mantra. The truth can't be the truth because the blue scout looks so young.

Well the blue scout didn't look that young. Face it, she looked her age. In fact, Carol Tiggs looked her age. She just had a round baby face. That the blue scout was aging backwards was just something Carlos taught Nyei to repeat. There was a whole reward system involved in teaching her to repeat that. Like "Path with heart". It's something you teach people via a reward system so that they'll repeat it to themselves and gloss over the truth. It's remarkable how you see the term "path with heart" come up when people are trying to defend their lover, cleargreen.

If someone thinks I'm being funny or insincere, check out Victor Sanchez' letter Corey has or will post to this web page. He even uses that phrase himself. Cleargreen used it to justify telling people to get lost.

Carlos was a genius for coming up with poetic images that people could cling to and muddle up their reasoning enough to swallow anything he wanted.

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Re: mass suicide?
From: Ahmo
Date: 11/24/99

Or they could have left to lend credibility to cleargreen's claim that Carlos burned and they followed. Possibly directed by Carol, who stayed, (i guess) to head any more workshops becuase I doubt they would have any success without the leadership of one of the original apprentices to lend authenticity(?).

Just a thought.

ahmo

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Re: mass suicide?
From: A Fool
Date: 11/24/99

Dan Lawton writes:

"Basically, you're halfway to rationalizing suicide in your own mind. That's the cult mindset. I'm sure the people who killed themselves down in San Diego had eloquent reasons to believe they'd be picked up by the space ship following the comet. Your reasoning is half way there. "

There's a fundamental difference between the idea of killing yourself by ordinary means and leaving like a warrior. Look carefully at what Carlos did, not what he said. (That, after all, seems to be a theme of this forum.) The guy died a very painful death. He saw it coming. If he wanted to take some people with him and avoid some of that pain, he probably could have done so. Instead, we have a trust that only pays off if people stay around.

"Also, your discussion about the motives of Kylie and Talia doesn't take in to account their screwed up reasoning process. People who get out of this cult mind control see clearly how badly we've been messed up by all this. But while you're in it you can't even detect it. My guess would be that Kylie and Talia believed it up until the last, then their mind was faced with realizing that Carlos died an ordinary death, not as he described. What they did from there is the part that's hard to predict. They might have killed themselves in order to avoid realizing the truth, a common event in cults. Or they might have waked up and become bitter and depressed for a few weeks, then gotten out of it and fled because they were ashamed of the whole mess. "

Cult suicides are rare. That's why they are so newsworthy. I have myself evaluated hundreds of individuals who were "suicidal". Personal self-interest usually wins out. Anger is much more fatal than sadness, except in old age. It's actually more likely that if they ended up bitter and ashamed that they'd end up joining SA. The fact that they haven't says something.

That's not to say that there weren't some people involved with Cleargreen that were screwed up, confused in their own way, parroting the company line in a way that is demonstrably false. That's the nature of groups like this, they attract crackpots. The more skilled ones end up part of the circle until they are found out, if they are found out. There's a underlying syntax there though that is real, and that's what hooked all of us at some point.

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Re: mass suicide?
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/24/99

I'm glad to hear cult suicides are rare.

Over in SA other sunday class members have been commenting, and remembering some things Carlos said about suicide. Two more I forgot to mention were discussed. Here's what was said:

`But Castaneda would say extreme things like ... "if you know you're not going to make it, then ... just blow your head off". He would talk about "doing it while you're still strong enough to do it".'

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Re: Not-doing verified by researcher
From: Calixto
Date: 11/24/99

Dan said:

On this morning's TV there was a news report about "mental aerobics".

It seems a researcher coined the phrase to describe the re-wiring of the brain that happens when you deliberately do different things.

He gave specific examples of things you could do as follows:

1. Close your eyes when you try to open a door with a key.

2. Turn the pictures on your desk at work upside down or set them at angles.

3. Read outloud instead of silently.

He said that unused portions of the brain (emanations???) get used as the brain tries to visualize and do the new task.

Naturally this verifies the benefit of Carlos' not-doings, but it also points out that simply taking the time to study and learn new things would be an even more concentrated way of accomplishing it. "

I thought I'd already made this point about the brain in many ways in numerous posts, but I must take exception to the statement that it is "not-doing" which is being verified. Just where CC may have "appropriated" this idea probably still needs a bit of research. The earliest similar concept that I happen to be familiar with personally is the early Taoist concept of "wu wei" which translates variously into "non-doing" or "action through non-action", and gee... it's been 15 years since I've looked at this concept ... but ... no, I really don't think we should just accept that CC or his imaginary teachers invented this idea of "not-doing".

-C.

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Re: Not-doing verified by researcher
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/24/99

You're right. Somehow it's hard to imagine CC reading lots of books to get his ideas from, but I can't figure out why it's hard to imagine that, because from listening to him talk in class it was obvious he had in fact read lots of books about such topics. I'm in the camp that doesn't really believe, deep down inside, that he borrowed everything. But I also realize that's probably just left over cult mentality because since I started looking around I've found out these concepts aren't rare at all, they're all common. This is just a particular mix of them that happens to appeal to us as particularly gloomy and withdrawn beings.

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Cleargreen guilt of law violation
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/22/99

It's strange how Carlos and group always accuse other people of doing things of which they themselves are guilty. I still believe it's one of Carlos' hidden sorcery principles. It isn't strange that the same type of behavior would come out in their case against Victor Sanchez.

Here's the law they accused him of violating, and when you read it remember their claim that some of the tensegrity techniques they sold us came from the blue scout who learned them from don Juan. We now know that's an impossibility.

Here's that law:

The California statutes cited in Castaneda's complaint against Bear and Sanchez included Business and Professions Code section 17500. Section 17500 reads, in pertinent part: "It is unlawful for any person, firm, corporation or association, or any employee thereof with intent directly or indirectly to . . . perform services . . . or anything of any nature whatsoever or to induce the public to enter into any obligation relating thereto . . . in any . . . publication, or any advertising device, . . . or in any other manner or means whatever, any statement, concerning such . . . services . . . or concerning any circumstance or matter of fact connected with the proposed performance or disposition thereof, which is untrue or misleading, and which is known, or which by the exercise of reasonable care should be known, to be untrue or misleading . . . . Any violation of the provisions of this section is a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding six months, or by a fine not exceeding two thousand five hundred dollars ($2,500), or both."

I say they should all spend a little time in the pokey for not waking up as soon as the info on this web page became available.

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Re: Cleargreen guilt of law violation
From: Anaid
Date: 11/22/99

You seem to be saying that the law says you can't mislead people to get their money, and that Castaneda said that some of the passes came from the Blue Scout, who got them from Don Juan. Then you say 'we now know that is impossible". I'm not sure I agree with what you say for a lot of reasons, but right now I'd just like to ask why you say that we KNOW it is IMPOSSIBLE that the Blue Scout could have learned any of these passes from Don Juan. Anaid.

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Re: Cleargreen guilt of law violation
From: Corey
Date: 11/22/99

Anaid asked:>>>>I'd just like to ask why you say that we KNOW it is IMPOSSIBLE that the Blue Scout could have learned any of these passes from Don Juan.<<<<

Here you are revealing that you haven't actually read the pertinent chronology on this site, the one for Nury Alexander, nee Patricia Partin, that shows that she was still very much in high school and only 15 years old when Castaneda and Co. have consistently said that don Juan and his cohorts left the planet -- i.e., 1973. They didn't claim she got the passes in "dreaming" or something -- they claimed at several workshops that she had known don Juan, that he gave her a name in Yaqui, and that he taught her passes. How can that be true if she was a sophomore in high school in Southern California when he made the big sorceric exit?

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Re: Cleargreen guilt of law violation
From: Leonard Zimmerman
Date: 11/23/99

Anaid writes:

>>>Show me where it says that she never met Don Juan in the second attention. When you use the word IMPOSSIBLE, I think you should have a bit more to go on that what you said in your post.>>>

It seems to me that you are grasping at straws here. When I spoke to Nyei about the Blue Scout being born in 1957, she explicitly told me that that was IMPOSSIBLE, because the Blue Scout was so "young". Then she told me that Carlos introduced the Blue Scout to her as his and Carol Tigg's daughter. She then went on to say that she thought that Carol Tiggs was younger than the Blue Scout. I felt somewhat skeptical when I had this conversation, but it was not until I hung up, that I realized that she was blowing smoke up my derriere. She capped the conversation off with a grandiose pronouncement that the phone conversation we were having was a "dreaming" experience.

Of course, perhaps it was all "tongue in cheek" on her part, but I believe that some tongues would be better off stuck to the roof of one's palate.

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Re: Cleargreen guilt of law violation
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/23/99

You could possibly imagine that she learned them somehow, but deffinately not in the manner they described, which is part of their claim, and can be totally disproven. So taking the story and saying, well, maybe they lied about the dates (including when don Juan left) might explain it, but that still falls under the category of false statements to mislead people into purchasing their product.

A judge wouldn't bend over backwards to come up with an alternate plausible explanation, he would only look at the claims (if he didn't laugh the whole thing out of court saying anyone that believed that crap deserved to get ripped off).

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Re: Cleargreen guilt of law violation
From: Anaid
Date: 11/23/99

It's just when you say IMPOSSIBLE...look, I read that she was born in 1957. Even if you want to approach this in the most mundane fashion and not take into account that "the blue scout" learned the passes...even if you want to say that the person born in 1957 who was named Patricia Lee Partin could not have learned them from Don Juan because Don Juan left the world in 1973 and that means Patricia Lee Parton was just going to be sixteen when he left, and besides she was going to such and such school...well, those were the SIXTIES, right? Woodstock, Runaways, etc. etc. You act like no teenager ever ran away from home or could manage to get out of the house and go someplace alone...or do you know where she went on every summer vacation of her life? If I told you what I was doing when I was fifteen, I would have to imagine you'd be shocked. Why is it IMPOSSIBLE?

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Re: Cleargreen guilt of law violation
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/23/99

People have spoken to the blue scout's parents and her sister. We know the real scoop. Carlos put her up to all this, after she met him around the age of 19. Before that she was just a screwed up teenager, like any other. Kind of like Carol Tiggs, except a little less resourceful.

As people are telling you, you're grasping for straws. The court wouldn't do those kind of mental gymnastics to defend cleargreen.

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Re: Cleargreen guilt of law violation
From: NP
Date: 11/22/99

. . Any violation of the provisions of this section is a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding six months, or by a fine not exceeding two thousand five hundred dollars ($2,500), or both."

Wouldn't that let them off too easy? If the tobacco industry would pay $2,500 would we be satisfied?

NP

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Re: Cleargreen guilt of law violation
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/23/99

I'd honestly be satisified to see them admit they were deceived and stop doing it to others. They were duped too, afterall. I'm not synical enough to think any of the survivors knew all along it was a fraud. But they do now, so what the hell keeps them going?

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Re: Cleargreen guilt of law violation
From: Ahmo
Date: 11/23/99

Yeah, I'm sure they know now that the jig is up, and that many of their assumptions and beliefs are quite foolish. But I think they may be involved deeply in what I think everyone here is involved in. That is trying to separate the wheat from the chafe, what does CC's death mean for those that followed him? Different things it seems, and if he became the pilar of all you belived, well then the incongruance of his death with his teachings would force them to examine their own experiences and asses for themselves what is real, useful, possible. I imagine it is a cataclismic time for them more than anybody, it goes for fools and warriors, the harder they come, the harder they fall.

maximum respect,

Ahmo

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I'm not from around here
From: myrddin
Date: 11/22/99

Iv'e herd referances to the tensegrity setup as a cult. What kind of higharchy does it have? And again, has any one figured out it's real perpous? I say "real purpous" because many of carlos friends'saction seem to be very shifty. What I mean is, do they want to give people like us the impretion that they are "false people" and are not to be trusted for a particular purpous? Would it not be wierd if they set it up to self terminate so it did not turn into a religen?

Sorry about Spelling. I'm lazy.

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Re: I'm not from around here
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/23/99

The heirachy was very complex. It changed daily, with the possible exception that the blue scout and the older "witches" remained on top. They still had their ups and downs with Carlos.

Generally, the latest sexual exploit girl received a lot of attention, until Carlos tired of her. It was like musical chairs. Whoever still had a seat when he died won.

The purpose was sincere for the cleargreen folks, that's for sure. What it is now is cult programming. They just don't realize how much they've been screwed up. I remember laughing with the sunday crowd when we entertained the idea it was a cult. But people who get free from it can't believe they didn't see how turned around they were.

There's no synister purpose. People sometimes speculate Carlos and the witches were "using" people's energy, but that's giving them credit for more power than they had. They couldn't use anyone, except by ordinary means.

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Uppity Injection
From: soap
Date: 11/23/99

I have read intently the majority of posts on this site over the last day or so. It is refreshing/sad/cathartic/frustrating and sobering to read all of them. Having had virtually no exposure to CC, except to have read excerpts of one of his books, I feel none-the-less that through each and every one of you his legacy continues. The personalities conversing with each other here are as different as they are identical - not to mention overwhelmingly articulate and intelligent. Some speak of 'non-ordinary' experiences, others happy to just comment. Many being adversarial, others more reconciliatory.

It seems clear to me that whether it was CC's intention or not he has achieved a rare and wonderful thing - to provide a place and time for a group of people (yourselves) to bring your experiences, thoughts, interactions and *reality* together and influence a particular cross-section of the world (namely the 'white, rational, capitalist, intolerant') in a way which could conceivably provide a blueprint for a collective 'warrior' existence. Phew... that was a struggle.

The sheer diversity of opinion, attitude, and argument, while seemingly destructive, provides the necessary fuel to energise and drive the 'blueprint'.

I know that thispost may affect the dynamics that I have been describing but that seems to me less important than me fighting the urge to write this.

soap

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So is there an alternate reality or not?
From: Aurelius
Date: 11/23/99

It seems to me there is plenty of hard evidence that there is some kind of alternative reality out there.

Maybe I'm missing the point. Is this web site solely about analyzing (in amazing detail) what went wrong with CC? (The donkey-buzzard tale convinced me he was fibbing.)

Or is it about "sustained action," which I have experienced as a genuine pathway to incredible new forms of seemingly universal knowledge? (which I am attempting to write a book about.)

If no one else wants to talk about the possible overlap between quantum mechanics and shamanism, I'll shut up and let you proceed with your fascinating tales of lies and sex.

I love this site, which is definitely a healing experience, so keep up the good work.

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Re: So is there an alternate reality or not?
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/23/99

Talk away. My most pressing question, is whether this alternate reality, which you can certainly learn to view, is simply a personal reality.

By the way, what's the latest buzz about unification? I heard we might be getting closer in the physics world.

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Re: So is there an alternate reality or not?
From: Ahmo
Date: 11/23/99

Dan, your most pressing question is being asked by many others, and most solutions that I have seen, seem to just get an adequate answer to get on with it, close the case y'know, because the implications are ground shaking. Postmodernists in anthropology and other fields wrestle with that question about our waking reality. how much of our waking reality is a 'personal reality' and if the general concensus is just a shared interpretation that depends more on the perspective than on it being 'real' Naturaly this is hard to test, especially with scientific methods which generally produce scientific results and leave us in the scientific world. This can be a burden and if you are interested on the limits of science, Read Morris Berman's THE REENCHANTMENT OF THE WORLD. It is written by a proffesor of physics if I remember correctly, and he goes through the history of science in its development into modern times and its effect on the human being, which still can't be reduced to on the grounds of biology,chemistry, or anything. I have heard and I'm sure you may be able to correct me, that biologists can understand how we sleep, but do not understand why, as it seems the human body as machine shouldn't require it. I guess I'm saying that I'm with you on the exploration of the 'personal reality' of the alternate or even this one, whichever one that is.

Pondering,

Ahmo

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Re: So is there an alternate reality or not?
From: Bernie
Date: 11/23/99

Yes there is an alternate reality; in the sick minds of those who cannot face the world as themselves, but must use artifice and subterfuge to gain a liking from their fellow humans. How shallow the result! These failed types stand out the world over with their panache for charming the weak hearted into the dark, subteranean and suffocating worlds of their fear. No names mentioned....

Bernie

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Re: So is there an alternate reality or not?
From: Anaid
Date: 11/23/99

Bernie, would you please, seriously, stop for a minute and take a look around you. Look at everything. What is it? Where did it come from? Yeah, I've read some physics books. But if you can believe the big bang, which they can only trace back to this "singularity", but they can't tell you where that singularity came from or what caused it to explode or whatever it did -- when you realize that we perceive the world the way we do because of the way our physical bodys are set up to -- for example most people don't see the ultraviolet spectrum with the physical eyes they are born with, or else it's that we are taught to see the world the way we do, but I just don't understand how anyone can look around and not see *mystery*, how can anyone think that they know exactly what is going on, and that any talk of "alternate reality" is only some manipulative garbage thrown around by the kind of evil people you describe...why do you seem to feel so threatened by this?

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Re: To Ahno and Anaid and amen.
From: Bernie
Date: 11/23/99

I don't feel threatened; gut wrenched, yes. How many roads must a man walk down before he can see that his own road is his lesser fare, his lesser inspiration? You see, I love Don Juan Matus' worlds but only as literature, this is why literature came into being in the first place: to wander through the possibilities of imagining. (I could have said intending there I suppose but resist the temptation of jargonatrics). Your posts are rather squishy if you don't mind my saying, but you are caught up in something you can't escape aren,t you? It's easy to go with the flow when enmired in the quicksand. Now I'm free! I'm having fun. I'm even getting Married this weekend! Bernie

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Re: So is there an alternate reality or not?
From: Leonard Zimmerman
Date: 11/23/99

Dan wrote:

>>>So they look for a father figure like Carlos and Cleargreen so they can feel safe like children.>>>

I know for a fact that there is at least one die hard Cleargreen supporter who still lives with his mommy even though he is way past the age where he should have become independent. I think some of the Cleargreen folks are in the same boat. Carol Tiggs is their "mommy" and to become independent from her may seem like a fate worse than death. Even though, I can hardly imagine why.

I've heard a lot about folks being mentally ill by being caught up in these cult idealities, but I think that mental illness normally refers to those with organic brain disfunction. Perhaps emotionally ill would be a better term for all of us who were caught up in living an ideal of absolute perfectionism. I'm cutting myself a bit more slack these days. I no longer berate myself when I feel annoyed by mean and/or incompetent govermental employees whom I have to deal with on almost a daily basis. Actually, the weird thing is that I am less annoyed than I used to be. Ah, the freedom!

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People who live in dream houses shouldn't....
From: Adelina Cerritos
Date: 11/24/99

Dan, you were once one of "them". Now you are abusive of "them". You chide and mock them for their naivete. If you have really seperated yourself from them, I believe you would be more understanding and sympathetic. You claim to know Carlos Castaneda and these "witches" personally. I believe I, (who have not met them) have a understanding of them that is beyond your reach. I know Carlos and the Witches better than any of you.

I am defending them becuase your abuse of them is the same abuse done to- and by you- when you were one of them. You have not separated yourself yet.Now you belong to the SA clique that mocks people for not being aware. You and Dan are not aware of very much. That's the first thing you will have to admit to- and I don't mean aware in just a philosphical sense, I mean everyday common sense aware. I find myself much more sympathetic to the people who believe than those who do not because those who do not are often very vicious and hateful and violent. I mean you just got out of the seat. It will take you years to unravel this. Corey is much worse.

How stupid can you be to have believed someone like Carol Tiggs could be in two places at once. Or that she had any power other than her ability to invent things in her mind that could not be shared or made available to anyone else. She has no substance. There isn't enough of her to go around but to be in one place loosely at a time.

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Re: People who live in dream houses shouldn't....
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/24/99

Your view is based on your continued participation in this system of beliefs. Back off for a moment, and think of this situation like a simple con. I hired them to fix my roof, they took the money and did a really shoddy job. Corey got ripped off to. Then we found out they were continuing to rip off people down the street. Corey took it on himself, who knows why, to start a web site to expose them so that people could know what they are up to. We're just angry consumers. No one would criticize an angry consumer for hostile words. They give them TV shows. In Corey's case, all other people would say is, boy, he sure hates to be ripped off. I wouldn't do all that work and start a web page. But I commend him for doing it because he'll help other people.

We aren't trying to be "warriors", so your criticism about our behavior is really irrelevant. That's the outlook that attracts people to this nonsense in the first place, an unhappy disposition that leads one to believe there's a quick philisophy fix for all our problems and that we can adopt some simple way of life and rise above having to deal with reality. Take the cleargreen diet of choice. It's downright harmful and stupid. But it causes a temporary weight loss and thinness is coveted above all else in cleargreen. Lose valuable muscle mass, damage your liver, make yourself incapable of sustained effort. It doesn't matter so long as you get thin quick. And if you can do it with less work, because you've discovered some secret everyone else is too stupid to see, that's the cleargreen way. Secret techniques. Thousands of them. A technique to fix everything. All you need is more of them. And they're a real bargin at the next workshop.

In keeping with that mood, you keep seeing it as a spiritual matter and maintain the feeling that they should be left alone because people should keep out of each other's spiritual beliefs. But it isn't. It's a made up system with no real basis, only lies, and the founders all know that. They are deliberately ripping off people for their own gain. That's a fact. They know it. They know there wasn't a don Juan. They know they aren't flying off into infinity daily. They make up new crap to feed people at the next workshop and have no remorse about that at all.

Granted, some are so confused they aren't even aware they are doing that, but their lack of awareness isn't reason to back off. They hop themselves up on an emotional jag by their own will. That it results in a form of stupid innocense doesn't excuse them.

Neither you nor I would rip people off like that and especially we wouldn't deviate their lives for anything in the world. People who would actually alter the course of someone else's life for their own personal gain, they deserve anything that comes along to bring them down.

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Re: People who live in dream houses shouldn't....
From: Ahmo
Date: 11/25/99

Dan, I'm not sure how you'll take this, but here goes: That criticism whoever wrote about you not trying to be a warrior I just can't agree with. From your posts it seems that you are a fine warrior, even if you don't believe in that stuff anymore, you are trusting yourself and not clinging to what you've held dear for a long time, that's a fighter in my book. And Corey as well, just putting up this website and the quality of feed back given & received on this forum is a test to his own efforts.

Good on you both,

Appreciatively,

Ahmo

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Re: People who live in dream houses shouldn't....
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/27/99

I don't like the term warrior because people use it as a way of rating and classifying each other, and also because I can't help picturing the people surrounding John Wayne's horse with feathers in their heads (not indians mind you).

But I bought in to Carlos' books long ago, and patterned myself in the stoic tradition, learning to work hard to acheive my goals. I won't be able to change that. My employees are all at home for thanksgiving, and I'm down here working, everyday this weekend, and on most others. Someone else still aligned with cleargreen has been complaining to me that I work too hard.

How about "stoic"? Maybe that's a better term than "warrior". (I was reading about the stoic philisophers in "acts" last night.)

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Re: People who live in dream houses shouldn't....
From: curious
Date: 11/26/99

What's the Cleargreen "diet of choice"?

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Re: People who live in dream houses shouldn't....
From: Leonard Zimmerman
Date: 11/26/99

curious wrote:

>>What's the Cleargreen "diet of choice"?>>

From what I have heard, it consists of a high protein, low carbohydrate regiman. I believe this would be similar to the Dr. Atkins Diet. I've heard from other sources that there are some problems which can be associated with this sort of diet. When one ingests a large proportion of protein, for some reason, calcium is leached from the bones. In fact, Dr. Atkins recommends that his patients take calcium supplements in addition to the diet. Also, according to one nutritionist named Gary Null, a diet high in protein also places undue strain on the liver and kidneys. Carlos died of liver cancer.

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Re: People who live in dream houses shouldn't....
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/27/99

It's a good thing to learn about. Carlos was diabetic, so he had to watch his sugars and carbohydrates. There was a diet that became popular about the same time which claimed that carbohydrates were addicting, messed up our adreline levels, and should be greatly reduced in our diet.

The cleargreeners, eager to follow their leader, quickly picked up on this "zone" diet. It seems to produce fast weight losses, and thinness is a must for energy trackers (beautiful, young, thin people sell workshops).

But recently the medical community has been speaking out against this diet, calling it downright harmful. As usual, they reccommend a balance, with carbohydrates at the top of the list.

Interestingly, I've been studying weight lifters knowledge of diet. These guys are real diet freaks. They work on what produces an increase in strength and muscle mass. All agree that carbohydrates should top the list, with proteins next. They recommend about 10% less fat than the medical community.

And these guys know what works, because they work their butts off to build mass. For instance, some have it down so well that they control their calorie intake by 100 calories, upping it or lowering it to adjust their results. They know exactly when, within minutes, to take protein or carbo suppliments after their workouts to acheive provable results.

I guess we could assume that building muscle mass isn't related to health, but it seems logical to me that when the body is repairing itself the fastest it's also in good shape nutritionally.

Also, I said it was impossible to sustain an effort when on the "zone" diet from my own direct experience with lifting weights. It's a fact that during heavy weight lifting the amount of sugars stored in your muscle mass are all important. After about 45 minutes of lifting they are all depleted, and it's nearly impossible to go on. I suspect that someone on the "zone" diet would have trouble going for 20 minutes. The zone diet also contributes to loss of muscle mass during tensegrity workouts, which explains how my strength reduced so greatly after years of only tensegrity. Not to mention my aerobic capabilities.

Cults always have their diets, it's part of the mental placebo effect. Living through rules handed down through the cult. It avoids having to face your own problems and work out your own answers.

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Re: People who live in dream houses shouldn't....
From: Theophilos
Date: 11/27/99

High levels of protein are detrimental to the system under certain conditions. It depends on the individuals health and lifestyle. In many instances high levels of protein can be beneficial and even curative.

The Zone diet has certain applications, again it depends on the individual situation. For myself, I had very little success with it whenever I tried to get cut. For putting on muscle though, it works very nicely when I up the calories to about 4500/day. These high calorie cycles should be alternated with low calorie phases to re-prime the metabolism.

The low-fat, high carb diet has been superceded on the cutting edge by the new ketogenic diets as far as bodybuiling is concerned. I have had the greatest success at beefing AND cutting by cycling high-fat high protein eating with brief and very intense high-carbohydrate loading. You have to be precise about it though. To have any success you have to meticulous about the macro-nutrient ratios and time frames.

The best thing anyone can do is to change their eating habits from time to time. Don't fall into grooves.

t

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Re: So is there an alternate reality or not?
From: Aurelius
Date: 11/23/99

Dear SA,

FWIW, I think I have pretty much figured out the entire bridge between ordinary and non-ordinary reality. As someone pointed out, mystery abounds. Alas my explanation takes the form of a novel scientific paradigm that is way too complex to go into here, and needs its own website.

I had planned to announce that it totally explains CC's experiences, until you all saved my ass by pointing out he probably never had them, or lied about them so much that evidence from dozens of other sources is more authentic.

At some point I want to catalog books and experiences that help you develop scientific views of alternate reality. Meanwhile, to share something of substance, I wish to point out 2 crucial ideas, which constitute entry points (ushers) into "expanded" reality.

1. The Planck Distance, 10**-33 cm, is an apparent "minimum distance." Compare that with DJ's statement in FFW that there are so many emanations that "numbers have no meaning." If the "ordinary fact" of distance is really the "nonordinary experience" of crossing (tunneling through) the fine lines (which are quantum objects), then there are 10**33 lines per centimeter.

Using an estimate of 2 lines per electron mass (trust me, this makes sense) there are only about 10**20 lines per linear centimeter associated with the Earth, leaving an incredible 13 orders of magnitude unaccounted for, i.e., you can fit an additional 10**13 universes between the lines of observable matter. That "line field" constitutes the Second Attention, and the "underlying" undifferentiated space is the Third.

As has been widely discussed in formal physics, at least since the late 1980's (esp. the Ashtekar Gravity Theory, whose equations no one can solve), a random line field, or a ball of rings, generates an apparently three dimensional, because the law of similar triangles works there, supporting the inverse square law. This explains the amazing fact that heaven and hell are 3D, because they are interaction sets, not base truths.

This has also led to formal speculation that our Universe is really just a ball, so we may be seeing the same galaxies over and over from different angles. There are serious proposals to count the number of really different galaxies (spectral signatures, I suppose), in case we are way overestimating how many there are.

Replica Watches  Replica Watches

2. Meanwhile, there is a great book (highly recommended) that tells all about Intent, and how it works, namely Rupert Sheldrake's 1981 classic "A New Science of Life." His revival of the puzzling doctrine of "chreodes" from the field of embryology provides an exact model for how Intent works. Read it! Link to it from this site!

Chreode comes from two Greek words chre = it is necessary, and hodos = way or path. A necessary way or path, a "canalized pathway of change," or what I call a "dimensionless probability structure" that exists everywhere and nowhere, which he shows can be created by repeated (sustained) action! To invoke a chreode, you need to place matter and energy into it, in a precise manner, and hook its entry point. This may explain every "invocative" procedure in shamanism.

Chreodality is Intent. Have you ever wondered how the "mood of the old sorcerers" could affect you? Or what Christ can do for you? The answer lies in the chreodes these people identified, or created, or enhanced by their repeated actions. When you hook into them, although they are nowhere, parts of you hook the "canalized pathway of change" which they define. In all experiences, including ordinary ones, your energy field, a huge ball of lines, gets influenced by whatever patterns you invoke. Your third eye seems to be an organ to consciously perceive, invoke, and process chreodes.

Intent makes the world. The lines are constructs of Intent. The Mold of Man is a root chreode that we are subclassed from. To be in vital health means to get back to it. There is a Mold of the Lines, and so on. The energy field can obviously be recycled over multiple lives. The remainder is left as an exercise for the reader.

A word on how I got all this. Every night for 15+ years, and sporadically for 30+, I went on long walks and spoke softly to myself, out loud, saying "Now next is?" and various other invocations. Something I call "the magic voice," usually my own voice, answers my questions, but only when I ask them precisely enough that I can understand what the answer could be. Seek and ye shall find. Knock and the door shall be open. Ask and ye shall receive. Knowledge is out there.

Aurelius

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Re: So is there an alternate reality or not?
From: Lonnie
Date: 11/24/99

Aurelius:

If no one else wants to talk about the possible overlap between quantum mechanics and shamanism, I'll shut up and let you proceed with your fascinating tales of lies and sex.

Actually there has been some discussion about quantum mechanics and the paranormal on the SA list. It's an interesting line of speculation, but it's difficult to see how at this point it can be anything more.

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Ibs
From: rdm
Date: 11/23/99

i remember when florinda said there was no third atention. (after all that talk!) and that don juan was stuck in the world of the ibs. (2nd attention) and i said that's odd. i thought that that world was "off limits." and she said there was a different agreement if you went there without making an agreement with them to go. Hmm. and then at the next seminar she said their answers might be fuzzy to us 'cause they'd never thought about our "weird" questions before. (Oh, really? and just what kind of questions did they have? "Gosh, this is all just so normal for us, don juan - tell us don juan, what should we wear in the second attention - flats or heels?" and then i remembered the first time I met her. she was standing on my knapsack. and i told her to get off. three times. that she was standing on my stuff. deep down i know now that somehow the spirit - which has never been a stranger to this weird being - that is was letting me know something about her and her cohorts. i challenged her. and she vamoosed. two can play this game, toots. that night I changed, but it wasn't because of her. it was because of the spirit. the real messenger.

the spirit is real. as real as can be. and their description of it couldn't be more accurate. but i think they got caught up in a sidebar somehow. boy i just don't know. i think they scratched at the door. but it never opened all the way.

when you do learn to see you do learn that nothing matters. and i think it's possible that this site may be the real foundation of a new line of seers. and if it is, i would hope that we/they will be extremely honest ones. somehow, they're fuzzy poetic insight was always just a little too nebulous and self-serving for my liking. dramatic insight is possible. seeing is possible. the miraculous is possible. but i've always said that similar profound awareness was also possible just by pondering your little finger. give me all weekend and i couldn't come up with such a creation.

i see a river. and i see it taking them all away to a marvelous place. but i see them also as the ones who were really stuck in the eddy. just like we are. that is, until i'm proved wrong.

i think their line of sorcerers ended cause they were egomaniacs. that's what my seing tells me. and i think carlos may have tried to tell us as much.

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Carlos' "blow your mind" truth.
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/24/99

Consider Nyei telling people like Linda that their phone conversation was dreaming. Also consider Reni asking someone if they found and brought back jewelry from dreaming. And consider recent comments from workshops that dreaming was a way of viewing the world with splendor and awe (not direct quote).

It's a bait and switch truth. People got hooked by the books, which were filled with magic, and because Carlos and witches couldn't do any of that they substituted ordinary things. They slowly indoctrinated people into believing they were on to some esoteric way of viewing things, then redefined the ordinary as magical. People swallowed it because as human beings we are all capable of getting a real, physical, high sensation just from belonging to a religious group. We take that as proof, an equitable substitute for our original interest. It's like going to a fine french resteraunt and being handed a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. If we waited 4 hours for the meal, chances are we'll be so hungry we'll actually believe it's french because they used french bread.

When Carlos said that he couldn't tell us the truth because it would blow our minds, he wasn't aluding to hidden magic so great we couldn't take it. He was aluding to a complete lack of magic, and a desperite substitute he'd developed which he knew he couldn't pawn off on everyone. It would blow our minds in his opinion because we'd see through his lies to the heart of his lack of magic and our mind would no longer be of use to him. Of course in his mind his reasoning was perfect and we just wouldn't be able to follow it.

Watch the magic be redefined daily, if you look you can see it. The leader is gone, the cult has new ones. They'll encorporate their own views and desires. Since there's no real magic, you'll get to see even more foreign elements added to the teachings.

The scariest part is that suicide is being slowly redefined as a way to join up with Carlos. We're a long ways from it, and discussing it here might prevent it, but we aren't as far from it as you think. There's an interesting discussion about Carlos telling 2 of the cleargreen people they were packed and ready to go kill themselves. This was before workshops. One got out, the other is still in there.

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Re: new line of sorcerers
From: rdm
Date: 11/24/99

when i refer to a new line of sorcerers I mean not a hierarchical line of egomaniacs whose actions are governed by a nagual. But rather people who discuss openly what they know. Like this site.

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Technique to get silent
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/24/99

Here's something that really works. But you have to be at least minimally capable of getting silent.

Before you go to sleep, do about 30 "crunches". I do them about 10 at a time because my abdominal muscles aren't in particularly good shape. I don't strain myself too much, just enough to get on the verge of that horrible feeling they bring. Then I rest about 10 seconds, and do another set. Maybe I do 5 sets of 10, maybe it's just 3. I didn't count. The idea is to get your abdominals tired, without causing too much pain.

Do them lying on your back. Don't raise your whole upper body, don't do sit-ups. They stir you up to much. Crunches are really subtle if you do them right, so they don't get you too wired up. The idea is to stay calm, like you are going to sleep, but tire out the midsection and put your attention on it in a subtle way.

After the crunches, just do whatever you normally do to get silent, preserving your position lying on your back.

The tensegrity idea, that certain movements or exercises can aid in navigating, is a good one. Now if only people could let go of the safety blanky of having a cult to give them a sense of purpose. Carlos just felt around and came up with whatever he could find, then made up stories about where it came from. We can do the same but without the stories.

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Re: Technique to get silent
From: diana
Date: 11/27/99

Dan -- I tried this again last night, and it did actually seem to do something -- I was lying on my back trying to be silent, and began to get hypnogogic type stuff going on, when I heard myself saying or rather found myself thinking 'these are dream images, and now I should just be able to jump in and start 'dreaming'. The scene I found myself in was an apartment building near the river on a high floor. I looked out the window at the water, and I thought - just go for it. I slid thru the glass and found myself hovering over the water. It was quite beautiful. I immediately began to look at my hands, and then to continue looking around, trying to decide where to go or what to do. Then I began thinking, "isn't there something else that I'm supposed to be doing now?" I flew around for a while, and at one point I heard the most beautiful song I had ever heard. It was just coming from everywhere and nowhere. I wanted to be sure to remember it, and I knew that if I didn't wake up I'd forget it. I began to sing the words, and found myself back in my body in bed, where I actually sang the words for a bit, until I thought, at that time, that I had a good shot at being able to remember them when I 'woke up'in the morning. Then I had the thought that I had to get back to dreaming. The next thing I remember I was lying in bed, and I felt a "five o'clock shadow' type beard rubbing against my shoulder. I tried to 'wake up' and there was a person in the bed. I had a moment of panic, thinking 'oh my god, what I have done, when I went to bed I wasn't sleeping with anyone' - I began to feel that vibration thing, and I got really scared because I couldn't move and I couldn't figure out 'where I was'. Again, the thought, 'there's something else you have to remember' came to mind. At that point, I remembered that I was trying to do dreaming, that I had to try and figure out where I was so I corroborate if this was just a lucid dream or if I was really 'dreaming'. Anyway, this type of stuff continued for a long time...I started flying again, and I tried to find a clock or street signs...but all I really wanted to say was that I had never had that feeling of "there's something else you have to remember" come to me so very strongly and so many times in the course of one nights dreaming. And the dreaming seemed to really continue on and on for a very long time. So if you have any more tips to give out, I would very much like to hear them. Thanks for that one. I guess I could have just said that your tip brought on some intense dreaming - I know what happened isn't 'much', but I thought I'd throw in the details for what it's worth. (trying to perform a slam-ectomy pre-posting)

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Re: Technique to get silent
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/29/99

Just do lots more like that. Switching back and forth and going in and out is really good practice because it helps teach how to hold on to a dream. I used to rely on going back in, and doing that often seems to have made it unnecessary. Or else it was the volume of tricks I learned for going back in that came in handy for hanging on instead. You thought yourself back in, you could also have stopped yourself from fully leaving by focusing your attention when it started to end.

I haven't figured out where to strike the balance between having purpose (remembering something you wanted to do) and going along with the dream. I guess I lost my purpose when I stopped believing the art of dreaming. But that hasn't taken the fun out of it.

I don't know about the guy in bed with you, but I used to have experiences of two kinds in that area. One was where an "evil" presence came to me from in front near the ceiling, grabbed me, and shocked me. The other involved various entities from the dream coming out into the waking world, which was probably just a dreaming copy world. But they all stopped after a couple of years. I know of at least 4 women who have had similar experiences in the beginning, which stopped later. And someone else commented that coffee before bed agravated the visiting being effect. I believe carlos once said that dream visitors could be caused by liver problems.

In sunday class Carlos made fun of a famous woman who had someone visit her at night and rape her analy. He said she accused him of being the dreaming visitor.

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new line of sorcerers
From: bishop
Date: 11/24/99

I'm a person recently dissillusioned with the behavior and methodology of Cleargreen Inc. I wish to thank the creator(s) of this site for giving an alternate, objective, (if somewhat bitter) forum for the discusion of the legacy of cc. Going through and reading much of the info on this site was shattering, to say the least. I'm now in the position to make more rational, and less ethereal decisons about my life and my beliefs. First and foremost, although now it is easy to dimiss Carlos Castaneda the man, I cannot so willfully dismiss many of the ideas and techniques he and his cohorts posited. Silencing the mind and ego-reduction are unmatched in their ability to pacify and expand the soul, although obviously these methods are found in other disciplines as well . I myself felt no benefits from Tensegrity (2 years practice)that could not be explained by the placebo effect. On the other hand, through recapitulating, I have experienced some benifits- mood elevation, the breaking of obssesions and some behaviors. I think what I'm getting at is in line with an earlier post about the new line of sorcerers. What now? What is salvagable, if anything. Perhaps there was something in what cc and the witches taught but is so well mixed with lies, egomania, and what the existentialists would refer to as "bad faith". I think we need to take the cue from a deceased German and start "philosophizing with a hammer".I believe it is the personal responsibility of those that were involved to not only expose the lies but to affirm what might work, to explicate that which is left after a furious cleansing. As jaded as I'm feeling right now, I'm more centered and balanced then ever before. After the cynicism and nihilism of my youth, to the naivete and faith in Cleargreen as an adult ( I know, it should have been the other way around)I feel I have some real perspective. Honesty and sincerity with ourselves and others in the only option available to us now, so instead of attacking each other let's grit our teeth and move foreward.(Although right now with the anger I'm feeling, attacking Cleargreen sounds a little cathartic:) )

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Balance
From: Badger
Date: 11/24/99

If you want to read something to balance out with what you find here, try these books.

"The Craft of the Warrior" by Robert L. Spencer.

"The Spirit of Don Juan" by Joaquin Castillo and Richard Dixey.

"Lightningbolt" by Hyemeyohsts Storm (somebody already mentioned this one).

"The Syntergic Theory" by Jacobo Grinberg-Zylberbaum.

"Confessions of a Spiritual Thrillseeker" by Oriah Mountain Dreamer

Also, this site might be of interest: http://www.swcp.com/~hswift/swc/members/9801/goswami31.html

night vision

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From: bishop
Date: 11/24/99

One of the many reasons Castaneda's ideas appealed to me was very simple. They helped explain phenomena I have experienced. Many times in my youth (long before I heard of cc) either right before going to sleep, or waking up in the middle of the night, I found that I could see in the dark.The bizarre aspect is that, not only was it pitch dark, but I could only see if my eyelids were closed, if I opened them the room was indistinguishable and black. I would open and close my eyes repeatedly to test it. When I closed my eyelids it was if some oblique light was cast on my bedroom and I could clearly make out my room. Experiences like these were usually in periods when I was dreaming heavily, either in the days prior to, or after, and were also occasionally accompinied by "sleep paralysis" (per prior posts). These "sleep paralysys'" was called night terrors by my family. I would like some opinions from those out there (both Cleargreeners and skeptics)and also any information about similar experiences. I would like to point out that CC expressed interest in a Western counterpart to what he was explicating, namely, the discipline of hermeneutics. Has anyone followed up on studying it? A good place to begin is with "The Hermeneutics Reader" edited by Kurt Mueller-Volmer it contains selections from and explanations of, several people, including: Husserl,Heidegger,Schliermacher,Dilthey,Gadamer and Chladenius

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Re: night vision
From: Ahmo
Date: 11/24/99

Bishop, I have had a bit of exposure to hermeneutics and from what I understand it has difficulties in that it's principles are derrived from the interpretation of texts. Texts are fixed and can be studied endlessly and interpreted in many ways, but experience, live action, even memory is not fixed, it changes with time, with perspective, with new understanding, with changing motives, thus it is problematic to apply hermeneutics to the interpretation of experience. One of the main reasons is that to treat something, (culture, in the case of anthropology) as a text, you get a frozen image of something that unfolds in time, thus you can only interpret that which has already changed and therefore doesn't exist anymore, so it has little practical value for real time events. It also has the effect of detemporalizing what it interprets, like it's source in the interpretation of the bible and religious law, the Bible, the text, becomes timeless, so it is not what was true one, but what is true always, and so you get a science of interpreting the application of a 2000 year old law in the modern context. Science is also a great detemporalizer, and so tends to be ineffectual in real time situations where there is no 'time' to apply scientific methods. That is why they depend so much on repetition, scientists need TIME to apply their craft. I feel sorcery is sorcery because of the real time applicability of its precepts. Hermeneutics can however, be applied to the works of CC as text, to interpret the ways in which to 'properly' use the concepts in light of our experience. But that has many problems as well, for even text isn't timeless, it has a context, which may be the 60's, fabrication, and scandal, or magic inspiration, and the nagual.

Hope it helps some.

Ahmo

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Re: night vision
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/24/99

Carlos took seeing with eyes closed as a sign of increased energy. He commented on it in class a couple of times, but only very briefly.

Calixto would probably tell you it's a dream where you are dreaming a copy of the room.

I learned to do it on demand by sitting in a chair and getting silent. From there try panning your vision to the left or right without actually moving by "wondering" what's to the left or right. Also try doing this when the room isn't pitch black, and then opening your eyes and doing both at the same time.

Not that either will change your life. They're just things I know can be done.

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Re: night vision
From: Calixto
Date: 11/27/99

Dan said:

"Calixto would probably tell you it's a dream where you are dreaming a copy of the room. "

Bishop seemed to be referring to seeing the room with eyes closed while awake, so no, this probably usually isn't dreaming a copy of the room. I think it's an interesting phenomenon, have experienced it myself, and --- to speculate --- would imagine it has to do with the brains ability to visualize. If your eyes are open, then the predominant influence is the system of "external vision", while if they are closed then the predominant influence is the capacity to imagine or visualize. I'd speculate further, however, that the brain probably *is* using similar "subsytems" as those used in dreaming to do a lot of our internal modeling and visualization.

The readiness with which such an image can come into play is interesting though, and might require further explanation. I'd say that because one has begun from within the same room with eyes open (establishing a sufficient general "framework" for the model), that as soon as the eyes are closed, the brain can very rapidly fill in all the details, because the overall general "framework" is well established.

-C.

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Re: night vision
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/27/99

The same effect is a good way to enter dreaming manually from waking. You close your eyes and do whatever technique you're working on. You can measure success because the mind starts to visualize "space" instead of the flat blackness of closed eyes. There's empty space in front of you. Inside that space you can project yourself, and it turns in to a real dream. It's better than sex, but I'd still prefer the sex.

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Cleargreen & Castaneda's Death
From: A Fool
Date: 11/24/99

Just a question. Does anybody know when and if Cleargreen was going to announce Castaneda not being around anymore, if the news hadn't been broken by CJ? It sounds like the folks at SA knew pretty quickly. Were there any plans?

To me, it was a big mistake not to come out with it in their own way rather than being forced into it. I felt pretty betrayed, I'm sure others did too. I mean, what was the plan, just keep pretending like he was no longer "available"? There must have been some discussion about internally about this.

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Re: Cleargreen & Castaneda's Death
From: Corey
Date: 11/24/99

A Fool (self description) asked: >>>>Just a question. Does anybody know when and if Cleargreen was going to announce Castaneda not being around anymore, if the news hadn't been broken by CJ? It sounds like the folks at SA knew pretty quickly. Were there any plans? To me, it was a big mistake not to come out with it in their own way rather than being forced into it. I felt pretty betrayed, I'm sure others did too. I mean, what was the plan, just keep pretending like he was no longer "available"? There must have been some discussion about internally about this.<<<<

As far as I was ever able to discern, there was no "plan" whatsoever as to public disclosure of Castaneda's death. I had indications within a few days of his death (telephone numbers that I had for four of the missing, for example, were all disconnected on the same day), and I confirmed with insiders that he was dead within a week of his passing. I awaited what I expected to be the imminent public announcement, but there was nothing. Workshops kept being held (in Germany, New York, Mountain View), but the Tensegrity instructors said nothing, or lied when asked if the Witches were going to be at the next workshop. It really became a living nightmare as the weeks without a public announcement extended into months. But they had already filed Castaneda's will with the court within a few weeks of his death, and the probate notices went out in early June, so you're absolutely right, they should have had a goddamned plan.

I had recommended to Reni that a meeting of local pratitioners who had been to workshops be convened in advance of the public announcement, assuring her that these people would be supportive, but deserved to hear something before just reading it in the paper. My suggestion was ignored.

I have learned that they were still signing book contracts on Castaneda's behalf in the interim, and that coupled that fear that already scheduled workshops might not sell out, may have led them to withhold the appropriate notice. Then when CJ, receiving his notice of the probate in the mail, inevitably called up the newspapers, Cleargreen acted stunned, and gave out a series of conflicting stories as to the whereabouts of the Witches until they closed their offices early that day (with me, among others, having called to tell them they should at least try to get their story straight).

All in all, it was an appalling spectacle, and certainly started me on the road to doubt. But we continue to see the same kind of "policy" for handling news and information on the part of Cleargreen today: they waited nearly a year before "responding" to the facts I'd put out about Carol's being in L.A. during the years she was supposed to be in the Second Attention. And their "response," claiming that Carol *was* gone, but "projected herself back once in awhile," was only put out via the two Internet mailing lists they control.

Since Carol is the only "first tier" authority figure left on the scene, we have to assume her mode of dealing with bad news is denial and obfuscation, since that's all we've gotten on her watch.

BTW, you should check out the info just added to the site summarizing the Eagle's Trust Agreement, which suggests that they might have been trying to wait out the 120 days that Castaneda was supposed to be "missing" before announcing that he was gone, to save having to admit that he died.

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Sunday Workshop
From: Biff
Date: 11/24/99

I am curious to know about how people got into the Sunday group. Was it word of mouth. How did Dan,Cory and Linda get involved. Just curious.

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Re: Sunday Workshop
From: Corey
Date: 11/24/99

Biff asked:>>>>I am curious to know about how people got into the Sunday group. Was it word of mouth. How did Dan,Cory and Linda get involved. Just curious.<<<<

It's largely described in the Introduction to the Sunday Sessions, which you can find through the Notes section of this site. Basically, they put together a list of people they remembered from the August three-week workshop, and a few of us who were invited suggested some additional people who moved to L.A. after that intensive. Periodically people would be dropped from the group (i.e., told that it wasn't meeting anymore) for a variety of reasons. Rosa Coll was very aggressive about getting Argentines and other Latin American visitors added to the group. For awhile he stopped allowing such visitors. Then he decided, after more than a year, that the ratio of men to women in the group was too high. So they invited all the Southern California area women to come to a women-only session with him. They held two or three of those before stopping it, and just inviting a few of the more "promising" women from that group to come on Sundays. As to what the criteria were for adding or dropping people, I'm afraid only Castaneda can tell you.

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Re: Cleargreen & Castaneda's Death
From: greggabi@aol.com
Date: 11/24/99

Early in June 1998 we found in their trash a curious cut up piece of paper with a signature of Carlos Castaneda written on it... except it was NOT Carlos' handwriting.

(I compared it to a signed book in which I saw Carlos write his name.)

While it is true this is only circumstantial... ...nevertheless someone was "practicing"...

It's no mystery to me that Carlos' death was meant to be shrouded by "The Yellow Wall of Fog".

But circumstances often unfold independent of people's will... and they still are...

Greg

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A note on Hermeneutics
From: Lonnie
Date: 11/24/99

Someone a while back mentioned hermeneutics in the context of supporting Castaneda's ideas. Jut thought I'd post some thoughts on the subject.

Hermeneutics is the branch of continental philosophy that deals with the understanding and interpretation of texts. Hermeneutics attempts to establish principles that (ideally) guarantee or (at least) render highly likely that we can retrieve the intended meaning from a given text. This is a real problem because, as Jacques Derrida has gone to tortuous extremes to show, the intended meaning is never present to the reader of a given text. It has to be recreated using whatever means the reader may have of guessing at what the author must have meant.

Derrida goes even further, asserting that the neurological processes that underly what we experience as bare perception and that are "presented" to our awareness via a multipliciy of levels of encoding and decoding are faced with an even more difficult hermeneutic problem than someone who merely wishes to translate, say, the bible into English from Hebrew and Aramaic. "Energy as it flows" presents the organism with a chaotic blend of perceivable marks (potential distinctions or traces). Making a world out of this chaos is a pretty mysterious and miraculous and completely ordinary affair--i.e., we do it constantly, day in and day out.

Interestingly, this is where Castaneda gets the leverage for his assertion that we don't "see" "energy as it flows". This is interesting on two counts: (1) Castaneda's statements regarding the "French Deconstructionists" were pretty disparaging. This is interesting but not surprising--CC disparaged a great many quite plausible sources for his own ideas. (2) Having noted that energy as it flows presents us with no necessary structure (i.e., world), he goes on to describe one of his own fevered devising complete with a universe creating predator and shadowy energy vampires--shades of H.P.Lovecraft!

But wait. In spite of the extreme disorder of the dancing wavefronts, the blooming buzzing confusion celebrated by Plato and Nagarjuna alike, there is a huge volume of evidence that there is structure to the world, and that there are objects "out there" that are as real (or unreal) as ourselves. Somehow our puny nervous systems manage to give us not just a good interpretation, but actually the best interpretation (for our purposes), the best representation of the world based on as yet unknown principles. But those principles might just be physical rather than hermeneutic. More likely the brain and nervous system use both types.

By physical principle I mean making use of some physical process to model a formal problem. If you think of the difference between patterns predicted by a perceptual model or "object hypothesis" and those actually present to one's eyes at a given moment, then you can think of that difference as a function. Then the task of resolving the energetic flux into an image becomes formally the same as finding a global minimum of the difference function.

One may easily show that a quantum system with a potential corresponding to such a function may be rapidly brought to the ground state by cooling where the ground state is not localized, followed by adiabatic cooling so that the ground state becomes substantially localized in the well containing the global minimum.

By hermeneutic principle, I mean a set of heuristic guidelines for deciding among a number of possible object models based on a number of contextual factors.

In short, there are probably energetic factors, many of them quantum mechanical in nature, that aid the nervous system in presenting awareness with the best interpretation of the objective causes of a moment's slice of energetic flux.

The real irony is that if you let go of Castaneda the real mystery returns. Castaneda went on and on about the world's unfathomable mystery all the while dishing out all kinds of half-baked explanations. Let go of Castaneda and the true mystery, all the things you really don't know, are staring you in the face. How exciting.

How about replacing "having to believe" with not having to believe--the not doing of the TBs.

In advance response to the accusations that I'm obsessed with the "European scientific paradigm", or words to that effect, I'll make a prediction. If you can take any human from any culture and throw them over a cliff like the one described in Tales of Power and not have them splash on the rocks below--I'll retract everything written here.

Lonnie "hoping no one actually attempts the experiment"


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