nar

 

Sustained Reaction


Sustained Reaction Archive - Page 7

Archive Message Index

Native view /Eurochristian-view - From: Nyai Tuppi - Date: 11/13/99
Re: Native view /Eurochristian-view - From: Leonard Zimmerman - Date: 11/13/99
Long is the road and hard that out of hell leeds up to the light. - From: Kevin Peterson - Date: 11/13/99
Re: Long is the road and hard that out of hell leeds up to the li... - From: Sandy McIntosh - Date: 11/13/99
Re: Long is the road and hard that out of hell leeds up to th... - From: Kevin Peterson - Date: 11/14/99
Re: Long is the road and hard that out of hell leeds up to th... - From: Leonard Zimmerman - Date: 11/14/99
Re: Native view /Eurochristian-view - From: Corey Donovan - Date: 11/13/99
Re: Native view /Eurochristian-view - From: Carlos' ridicule of indians - Date: 11/14/99
Re: Native view /Eurochristian-view - From: Buffalo in the ravine - Date: 11/14/99
Re: native view/ euro-christian view - From: Ahmo - Date: 11/13/99
Re: native view/ euro-christian view:T. Brown - From: Nyai Tuppi - Date: 11/14/99
Re: native view/ euro-christian view:T. Brown - From: Ahmo - Date: 11/14/99
Re: native view/ euro-christian view:T. Brown - From: Ahmo - Date: 11/15/99
Re: native view/ euro-christian view:T. Brown - From: Nyai Tuppi - Date: 11/27/99
Re: native view/ euro-christian view:T. Brown - From: Ahmo - Date: 11/27/99
Re: native view/ euro-christian view:T. Brown - From: Nyai Tuppi - Date: 11/29/99
Re: native view/ euro-christian view:T. Brown - From: Ahmo - Date: 11/29/99
Re: native view/ euro-christian view:T. Brown - From: Theophilos - Date: 11/29/99
Re: native view/ euro-christian view:T. Brown - From: erik grafstrom - Date: 11/29/99
Re: native view/ euro-christian view:T. Brown - From: Ahmo - Date: 11/30/99
Re: native view/ euro-christian view:T. Brown - From: erik grafstrom - Date: 11/30/99
Re: native view/ euro-christian view:T. Brown - From: Ahmo - Date: 11/30/99
Re: native view/ euro-christian view:T. Brown - From: Ahmo - Date: 11/30/99
Re: native view/ euro-christian view:T. Brown - From: Ahmo - Date: 11/30/99
Re: Dropping names - From: Linda Zoontjens - Date: 11/29/99
Re: Dropping names - From: Nyai Tuppi - Date: 11/30/99
Magical passes and exercise - From: Bernie Rooney (definately not flinthood) - Date: 11/15/99
Re: Magical passes and exercise - From: Bernie - Date: 11/16/99
Affection and Potential of an Individual - From: J. Stender - Date: 11/16/99
Re: Affection and Potential of an Individual - From: sven - Date: 11/16/99
old florinda - death certification - From: rdm - Date: 11/16/99
Re: old florinda - death certification - From: Kevin Peterson - Date: 11/16/99
Re: old florinda - death certification - From: greggabi@aol.com - Date: 11/17/99
Re: old florinda - death certification - From: Calixto - Date: 11/17/99
Japanese cult refuses to admit man is dead - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 11/17/99
Re: Japanese cult refuses to admit man is dead - From: Bernie - Date: 11/17/99
Re: Japanese cult refuses to admit man is dead - From: rdm - Date: 11/17/99
Re: Japanese cult refuses to admit man is dead - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 11/17/99
Re: floaters - From: rdm - Date: 11/18/99
Re: floaters - From: Logan - Date: 11/18/99
Re: floaters - From: Leonard Zimmerman - Date: 11/18/99
Re: floaters - From: rdm - Date: 11/18/99
Re: floaters - From: Bernie - Date: 11/20/99
Nagual Lujan - From: Leonard Zimmerman - Date: 11/17/99
Re: Nagual Lujan - From: Leonard Zimmerman - Date: 11/17/99
Re: Nagual Lujan - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 11/27/99
Re: Nagual Lujan - From: Leonard Zimmerman - Date: 11/27/99
Second death reported in bizarre cult case - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 11/18/99
Re: Second death reported in bizarre cult case - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 11/19/99

-----
Native view /Eurochristian-view
From: Nyai Tuppi
Date: 11/13/99

People here have asked me why I am concerned with what is said about the Castaneda group, well I don't care, but that will not register. What interests me is the continual history of genocide that is still an ongoing occurence in this area. Well before Columbus, Natives had contact with the Taipo, Taipo being light skinned nationalities and anyone who thinks of themselves when the derogatory term 'White person' is used. When I was in the kindergarden class, even then I knew there were higher grades or levels to school. But as a Newe sosohni, I, like many other natives was at first unaware that many levels of being were possible. Natives didn't exist until the Taipo wrote about them, yet they were not writing about natives, but about their idea of what natives are. Some tried to preserve their idea of the levels, but most seeked to eradicate most or all of the levels of native existence. Being that the Taipo had its own levels modified, many of them were unaware that other realities existed.

This is the core cause for the rift in the native communities. You could have generation after generation of a present family on a reservation unaware that there was anything spiritual about the tribe or any tribe. Their known history has been continual physical struggle. I became aware of this when talking to my American-Indian student counsellor, when she asked what the medicine bag around my neck was. She is also one of the main organizers of the Indian summer festival. I know different tribes have different practices, but the lack of awareness comes from Genocide. Her experience as an indian was bleak reservational life, as she said. Some native peoples have spiritual practices on the rez', but it may only be one or two levels, such as what they perceive as traditional ceremonies. So when someone asks them about other native levels that have been remembered. They naturally say its false, they never heard of anything like that. If an elder spiritual interpreter went into the other worlds and found a forgotten level, people here might respect his view, but would ultimately consider it a delusion. Perpetual Genocide. If a younger native did this, forget it, he/she would be a bullshit wannabe. But this is one level to find other levels that my tribe and other tribes have engaged in since long before the lost sister returned. As far as drug use to access other worlds, I never needed or used it, but some do. But because of the Genocide, many native peyote practioners today are unwilling to talk about it anymore because the Taipo can only see it as "There in that lodge just getting loaded" or "The drug is just instigating an illusion". And many natives end up engaging in european and asian levels of spiritual practice that are missing from their own tribes or collective American-Indian's memories. They are not wrong for doing this, they just do not have the ability yet to access the forgotten technigues of their heritage. Now the obvious point of relevance here is this site is seeking to continue the practice of erasing any levels that are being restored. And Castaneda did it as well by hireing people to foster the belief that the Don juan's tribe were the only ones engaged in those levels, and hence his group were the only ones permitted to show the levels, and this site takes it further to suggest that the yaqui never had those levels, because they enquired of literature written about some yaqui that had no generational memory of the levels. I'm not interested in the Victor Sanchezes or M. Tunneshendes any more than the Castanedas. That is not my point, I'm concerned about the restoration of lost levels of native existence and the continual genocide against it. I can go on and on about the different ways this is achieved, but I have a life to live. But the intention of the Taipo to write down from their perspective Native experience has always ended up a disservice. Even Castaneda's. A Taipo seeks to understand a natives reality in the only way they can, by making comparisons to their own. If I describe a situation where I had a mental connection with a friend, Linda writes I'm engaging in Clairovoyance, which has its own european ideas. And though they are basically the same thing, there is elements to the term "Clairovoyance" that I am not involved with, so there is a misunderstanding, and we are both speaking english. Imagine an anthropologist with nothing but a catholic spiritual background, and I don't just mean Castaneda, but all anthros' who seeked to clarify native realities, speaking to a native who spoke a different language and had different ideas and perspectives on whatever they discussed. Fast forward to the last twenty years. You have people on this site going to seminars, with all their erroneus ideas about natives culled from books written by the Taipo about Natives, and their christian or secular upbringings and no awareness of what they are really getting into. This is where you have someone like Linda, with xian guilt, putting her hands over her face, when someone like the blue scout says, 'you haven't really changed that much'. There may have never been a blue scout, atleast not in the way they thought. Another explanation which is evident from the books is that they don't seem to know whats going on, maybe they really believed that this girl was not born in this reality because of what supposedly occured, maybe in fact it was her energy body only that was trapped there. Either way I don't care, I just know I'm still trying out and doing some of the technigues in the books, as well as my own tribes. But the Genocide advocaters will say, Bullshit, its all superstitious nonsense!" I of course allow for the possibility of fabrication, I wouldn't believe Castaneda's word anymore than I believe Linda just happened to run into someone that knew Carol from acupuncture class. That could mean what she thinks, or it could mean that Castaneda and them really didn't know what was going on. Or it could mean something else. But the books have many rings of truth, mainly the description of the levels, so even if Don Juan never existed, I know from my own experience that the levels are described in the native perspective, which would be odd if it was all made up. Cultures all over the world have the same levels in different perspectives, and though they are the same, they cannot be completely compared. But once again I'm only interested in Native restoration. That could be from physical worldly struggles to universal and beyond levels. This site is one of those levels, be it in a Taipo perspective, and it needs to be here. Tsaayu. The inimitable Nyai Tuppi

-----
Re: Native view /Eurochristian-view
From: Leonard Zimmerman
Date: 11/13/99

>>This is where you have someone like Linda, with xian guilt, putting her hands over her face, when someone like the blue scout says, 'you haven't really changed that much'.>>

Nyai, thank you for your long and well thought out post. It is a pleasant relief from some of the other things you have written. I should have been more descriptive when I wrote about holding my head with my hands in despair. My "belief" at the time I had such a feeling was that Miss Blue Scout was a peerless warrior, who was in a constant state of inner silence. Since I have had a number of non-ordinary events and perceptions occur while I was in such a state, I felt that the only way I could have changed was by being in such a constant state of inner silence myself. Now knowing what I now know, I would have to say that I doubt if Nury Alexander experienced any altered perceptions other than the drug induced variety. I did believe that it was possible to achieve this, but that perhaps I just had not worked hard enough to get there. Since, at that time, I was working very hard practicing the movements and recapitulating for up to six hours on weekends, I just thought it would not be possible for me to get there. It had nothing to do with guilt, xian or otherwise. It had everything to do with frustration.

Now, since I have relinquished the desire to use the particular techniques of Carlos Castaneda, I must say that I feel more liberated. The reason I say this is because the issues surrounding CC, Cleargreen and their supporters are so disturbing to me, I feel like ANY alternative is better than following their recommendations. Iíd rather work out in a gym than do Tensegrity and I would rather meditate than recapitulate. My body has become stronger and my mind more clear after discarding what I now consider cult beliefs.I have known since I was a child that inner silence was the key to experiencing altered perceptions. I was not brought up Christian and spent most of my free time in nature. It was an escape and one of the only sources of true joy in my life at that time. I learned to love the natural world in which we live and out of that love, I found beauty, awe and silence. Now, even though I am a dweller in an urban environment, I find silence in the most unexpected places. I have become a relatively social creature and have found little bits of silence here and there by playing on the company volleyball team, at the gym, walking through museums with friends, etc. The same silence I found as a child in nature.

My point is that if one wishes to have altered perceptions, silence is the key and I feel that there is value in having those experiences. If nothing else, just for the fun of it. This is what I meant when I wrote that I did not want to take your love away from you.

>>There may have never been a blue scout, at least not in the way they thought. Another explanation which is evident from the books is that they don't seem to know whats going on, maybe they really believed that this girl was not born in this reality because of what supposedly occured, maybe in fact it was her energy body only that was trapped there.>>

Are you referring to Patricia Partin aka Nury Alexander?

>>And many natives end up engaging in european and asian levels of spiritual practice that are missing from their own tribes or collective American-Indian's memories. They are not wrong for doing this, they just do not have the ability yet to access the forgotten technigues of their heritage. Now the obvious point of relevance here is this site is seeking to continue the practice of erasing any levels that are being restoredÖÖBut once again I'm only interested in Native restoration. That could be from physical worldly struggles to universal and beyond levels. This site is one of those levels, be it in a Taipo perspective, and it needs to be here.>>

It seems that your approach to this website has been mostly adversarial. Iím sorry that you consider it genocidal that people are taking issue with what Castaneda has written. I doubt if Coreyís intent was to slaughter the belief system of Native peoples by bringing contradictions in what CC & Co. said and wrote into the public domain. Leonard

BTW, are you familiar with or associated with Harley Swiftdeer?

-----
Long is the road and hard that out of hell leeds up to the light.
From: Kevin Peterson
Date: 11/13/99

Nyai:

Nice to see someone finally bringing up this issue. I first noticed the eurocentrist bias/prejudice on this site while reading the material in "Explorations" (b4 the Discussions page). I didn't respond because for years I had a knee-jerk reaction over these issues and just didn't think that people here would "get" what I had to say. But since the can-o-worms is open, here it goes.

For starters, it seemed odd at first to read the stuff in "Explorations" regarding don Juan's fictional status, especially coming from people who were purportedly "close" to Carlos and "followed the Warrior's Way" (at least in their own minds). The reason it was odd was that I thought that people who were interested in the Castaneda lore would have thoroughly explored the "Native" arena (both here and in Mexico) to search out the contemporary context of this knowledge. But instead I found people refering to the works of de Mille, Noel, and Fikes! As if they now represented credible sources for the "Castaneda hoax"!

Well, I suppose taking their cue, the SA "contributors" started peppering their articles with the same eurocentrist view we all know and love. In particular, the notion that someone with a sophisticated philosophy like DJ could exist - especially since he was supposed to be a huarache-wearing indio. What!!!??? This notion is accepted as valid since it comes from anthros and and other such people. They see what the're permitted to see of the magico-religious practices of some indian nations and then conclude that what CC describes is hogwash since they didn't see any of it first hand. More like ego-eurocentrist. They expect that since they are important people, and they are after all doing the indians a favor, they will be/are shown everything the indians know of anything.

Another more recent criticism revolves around the origin of the "magical passes". Of course, since the SA crowd are only familiar with what is around them, they conclude that the stuff must've been invented by Carlos (learned from Howard or whatever). They know this since there is no record of "indian martial arts". Yes, of course.

The sexual practices are another example. The heyoekha "culture" another. In a previous post I brought up these two points, but the responses I got is evidence of what you want with this forum.

Then there's the bleeding-heart "compassion" from people like Tontita (Linda Z). Hippie era anglos that think they know what's good for the Indians, spouting all that rhetoric they learn from reservation politics. You wanna know why they are so opposed to people like Carlos, Swift, Chuck Storm, and the like? There's nothing in it for THEM! Or you think these "spokespeople" really have the welfare of their communities in mind?

I gotta go now, but I'll continue this thread later.

Kevin Peterson

P.S. In case my "credentials" are questions, I'm a "breed" (part Mexican, that's why I can speak fluent Spanish). I lived in two different reservations until I was 17. I've been "seriously" involved in this path for some forty years and the martial arts (Asian and "indian") for about 50.

-----
Re: Long is the road and hard that out of hell leeds up to the li...
From: Sandy McIntosh
Date: 11/13/99

Kevin Peterson writes: "The reason it was odd was that I thought that people who were interested in the Castaneda lore would have thoroughly explored the "Native" arena (both here and in Mexico) to search out the contemporary context of this knowledge. But instead I found people referring to the works of de Mille, Noel, and Fikes! As if they now represented credible sources for the "Castaneda hoax"!

You may be right when you point out that people like deMille, Noel and Fikes, since they are not Native people, should not be taken as the only sources for information about the "Castaneda hoax." Since I'm the one who brought them to this site, let me say a couple of things about them. DeMille never claimed to be an authority on the Yaquis, or on any other peoples. His arguments have to do only with the internal evidence in Castaneda's books. Likewise, Daniel Noel is a religious and psychological theorist as well as a career academic. He's never claimed to be otherwise. Jay Fikes, on the other hand, can claim some authority because of his twenty years working and living with the Huichol as an adopted brother, and because he was greatly instrumental in the successful fight to legalize peyote in the observances of the Native American Church. Even so, I agree with you that that's not enough.

In my opinion, a serious reading of the material on the SA website makes a good case for the *internal* phoniness of much of what Castaneda has written. At the same time, no one traveled with Castaneda when he went into the field; no one can prove that he never met don Juan. Assuming that there were no witnesses, the next best thing would be to have people with closer ties to Native Americans get to work seeking out the knowledge that can be collected. That would be a real contribution to the purposes of this website. Now *you* seem to be uniquely connected. It's okay if you only criticize what others have worked very hard to bring to this site, but it would be more helpful if you took it upon yourself to do some research in the field and publish your results here. Then maybe we'd be getting closer to the truth that you see is lacking.

-----
Re: Long is the road and hard that out of hell leeds up to th...
From: Kevin Peterson
Date: 11/14/99

I need to clear up some confusion.

From previous posts:

>>>Then there's the bleeding-heart "compassion" from people like Tontita (Linda Z). Hippie era anglos that think they know what's good for the Indians, spouting all that rhetoric they learn from reservation politics. You wanna know why they are so opposed to people like Carlos, Swift, Chuck Storm, and the like? There's nothing in it for THEM!>>>

What do I need from THEM that I can not achieve on my own? Absolutely nothing. >>>>>

I think you misunderstood my meaning. When i say "they" are opposed to .... I was refering to the self appointed watchdogs of "Native spirituality," not SA. I know quite a few of the most vocal detractors (some personally) so what they say is void of any merit, IMO. It's funny how many of them are still pissed off that "Indian spirituality" is being taught to the anglos and Europeans. There's still a sense of bitterness towards whites for all the brutality endured in the last 500 years. I don't judge them negatively for doing so, as i stated earlier, these topics elicited a knee-jerk response in me several years ago. What changed my outlook on things was hearing the profecies kept by the Guardians of Tradition in Mexico. Especially, the one about the reason for the lack of a concentrated defense against the European invaders.

<<<Donít cry to me about reservation politics. The day Swiftdeer started his "sexpot teachings" was the day he put himself into being a guru just like any other guru. Then he went around proclaiming that his teacher Two Bears was the person upon whom CC based the character Don Genaro. Now that Castaneda is being proven to be the incompetent fraud that he was, other "Native" teachers who have been riding on his coattails are no doubt going to start feeling the heat. Boo hoo.>>>Now this reference I don't get. Do you know Swift personally? I knew Tom Wilson, and so did Carlos. I met Swift through him (Two Bears) and later Chuck Storm. He is one of the most amazing human beings I've ever known, a true man of knowledge. It's interesting that most of his family never knew of his deeper knowledge (i.e. beyond just Dineh shamanism) until after he crossed over. Which underscores the idea that just because people that pride themselves in knowing what the "true" native teachings are don't know about these hidden teachings, doesn't mean they aren't "authentic." As recently as 100 years ago, while the Medicine Chiefs were scattered amongst the many Nations hiding, if any of them were discovered it cost not only their lives, but also the lives of their hosts (or at least they were in a heap of trouble). Anyway, if you're really interested, I highly recommend the book "Lightningbolt" by Chuck Storm. It's one of the most moving and beautiful books I've ever read.

As for the "sexpot teachings" what are you talking about? I hope you're basing your comments on something other that what you found on the net. BTW, if the Cherokee Nation, or any other for that matter, were more worried about the quality of their orgasms than playing the role of victims, they probably would be a lot better off than they are (this is assuming they would be practicing the Chuluaqui Quodoushka). These comments only show that you don't know what you're dealing with.

>>>Or you think these "spokespeople" really have the welfare of their communities in mind?>>>

The welfare of which communities? The Pandora Avenue community? Swiftdeerís community? If you are speaking about the legal organization I once worked for, itís members have been actively involved in legal actions concerning land, fishing, and civil rights affecting Native people across the country. One of itís members was William Kunstler who passed away a couple of years ago. You may remember that he was one of the attorneys for the Wounded Knee Legal Defense Project. >>>>>Again, as above, I was refering to the Native communities of which these spokespeople are representatives (i.e. the ones who critisize Carlos, Dhyani, Swift, etc. as being "plastic" medicine men and women). I actually commend and appreciate the work done by legal organizations that take on these challenges. So no squabbles there. : ^ )

<<<Since you are a P.I., how much would you charge to find Talia and Kylie? Email me, my address is next to the Yaqui article I wrote. >>>

I found plenty of information on two others that you might be interested in. One is a certainty (I had the pictures e-mailed to me 4 days ago), the other, I have a strong lead (I'll get the confirmation soon). Sure is nice to have people that owe you favors scattered in different places. ; ^ )

However, I doubt I'll pass on this information to the general public (maybe i'll supply some leads for you by e-mail to do your own search - see if it's really worth it). The two you mention don't seem as interesting, but if you must know, I usually charge from $250-$500 per hour plus other stuff depending on travel etc. I know it's steep, but I guarantee results (if I know I can't deliver, I don't take the case).

<<<BTW, when are you going to have me come out to South Pasadena so you can shoot apples off the top of my head? >>>

Well, if it's all the same to you i would prefer to use my bow (the William Tell thing). But, if you tell me where you're at maybe I could try it with my .30-06 hunting/sniper rifle. Just get up on your roof and close your eyes. Don't worry, I'm a reasonably good shot. Oh yeah, make sure you use a Granny Smith. ; > }

Hasta la proxima!

Kevin Peterson

-----
Re: Long is the road and hard that out of hell leeds up to th...
From: Leonard Zimmerman
Date: 11/14/99

Kevin writes:

>>>I think you misunderstood my meaning. <BIG GIANT SNIP> These comments only show that you don't know what you're dealing with.>>>

1. profecies kept by the Guardians of Tradition in Mexico. 2. hidden teachings 3. Medicine Chiefs 4. and of course the inevitable Chuluaqui Quodoushka

These are no doubt the great "secrets" only revealed to the select few like yourself. Forgive me, but for those of us who have been made privy to the secrets of the ancient sorcerers of Mexico, this sort of talk just seems like more made up gibberish. Perhaps you would have better luck over on adc.

<<<Since you are a P.I., how much would you charge to find Talia and Kylie? Email me, my address is next to the Yaqui article I wrote. >>>

>>>I found plenty of information on two others that you might be interested in. One is a certainty (I had the pictures e-mailed to me 4 days ago), the other, I have a strong lead (I'll get the confirmation soon). Sure is nice to have people that owe you favors scattered in different places. ; ^ )

However, I doubt I'll pass on this information to the general public (maybe i'll supply some leads for you by e-mail to do your own search - see if it's really worth it). The two you mention don't seem as interesting, but if you must know, I usually charge from $250-$500 per hour plus other stuff depending on travel etc. I know it's steep, but I guarantee results (if I know I can't deliver, I don't take the case).>>>

Well, if you have pictures, by all means share them. Heck, if you are feeling particularly generous you can email them to Corey, whom I am sure would be happy to post them to the website. Iím sure I can expect an e-mail from you on leads for our favorite missing so called "witches" the day that hell freezes over. Iím not holding my breath. Besides, Iím mostly interested in the whereabouts of Talia and Kylie.<<<BTW, when are you going to have me come out to South Pasadena so you can shoot apples off the top of my head? >>>

>>>Well, if it's all the same to you i would prefer to use my bow (the William Tell thing). But, if you tell me where you're at maybe I could try it with my .30-06 hunting/sniper rifle. Just get up on your roof and close your eyes. Don't worry, I'm a reasonably good shot. Oh yeah, make sure you use a Granny Smith. ; > }>>>

I have a better idea. Why donít you get up on your roof and fire off a few rounds while yelling "Chuluaqui Quodoushka" really loud. No doubt when the SWAT team arrives, they will be so smitten by the "four level orgasm" that they will be writhing on the ground in ecstasy, unable to do anything but shudder from the tips of their boots to the top of their cute little SWAT caps.It could be a national event, televised across America. I can see Janet Renoís perplexed, but annoyed expression, saying something like, "Well, after the Branch Davidian thing, what do you want ME to do?"Then, of course, the Native community will end up taking the blame. Isnít that always the case?But, since you are obviously so at odds with "reservation politics", what do you care?

Hurry up, itís getting dark soon. Leonard

If you need a lawyer, give me the "secret incantation" for raising the dead and I will see if I can get Bill Kunstler for you.

-----
Re: Native view /Eurochristian-view
From: Corey Donovan
Date: 11/13/99

Nyai explains: >>>>People here have asked me why I am concerned with what is said about the Castaneda group, well I don't care, but that will not register. What interests me is the continual history of genocide that is still an ongoing occurence in this area. . . . . Natives didn't exist until the Taipo wrote about them, yet they were not writing about natives, but about their idea of what natives are. Some tried to preserve their idea of the levels, but most seeked to eradicate most or all of the levels of native existence. Being that the Taipo had its own levels modified, many of them were unaware that other realities existed. This is the core cause for the rift in the native communities. You could have generation after generation of a present family on a reservation unaware that there was anything spiritual about the tribe or any tribe. . . . . Some native peoples have spiritual practices on the rez', but it may only be one or two levels, such as what they perceive as traditional ceremonies. So when someone asks them about other native levels that have been remembered. They naturally say its false, they never heard of anything like that. If an elder spiritual interpreter went into the other worlds and found a forgotten level, people here might respect his view, but would ultimately consider it a delusion. Perpetual Genocide. If a younger native did this, forget it, he/she would be a bullshit wannabe. But this is one level to find other levels that my tribe and other tribes have engaged in since long before the lost sister returned. . . . . And many natives end up engaging in european and asian levels of spiritual practice that are missing from their own tribes or collective American-Indian's memories. They are not wrong for doing this, they just do not have the ability yet to access the forgotten technigues of their heritage. Now the obvious point of relevance here is this site is seeking to continue the practice of erasing any levels that are being restored.>>>>

I appreciate your filling us in on your point of view on these issues, and the cultural background and experience that you bring to the table. I would suggest that there may be pieces on the Explorations page that you have neglected to read as yet that make some of the same points with respect to what you call "genocide," and that this is an issue that some of the "Taipo" here are concerned with as well. For example, I commend to you the excerpts entitled, "Native American Elders' Reactions to Castaneda and 'don Juan'"; the piece entitled "Yaqui Women Excerpt re Castaneda"; "Conjuring Brujos: Did don Juan and Genaro really Exist?"; and "The Cahuilla Connection." Those of us who lack ready access to Native informants and oral traditions maybe overly reliant on whites and Native Americans who have written books and articles on the subject. Nonetheless, I think it would be fair to say that this issue is being discussed on the list that gave birth to this site, and in a number of the pieces represented here, which is not to say that we could not benefit greatly by hearing more from people with the personal experience and background that you apparently possess. It is also fair to say that there is plenty of evidence that Castaneda (and Taisha) were "equal opportunity marauders"--pillaging valid techniques and practices from Asian and Eastern traditions as well, without crediting their sources.

That said, I don't think you have made your case at all that "this site is seeking to continue the practice of erasing any levels that are being restored." That is hardly the purpose of this site or a fair characterization of it, in my view. And the bulk of the critique of Castaneda here to date, BTW, has nothing to do with the fact that there are other levels of reality that humans are capable of experience--rather it has to do with Castaneda's authoritarian-guru stance, and the psychology of his grandiose narcissism that led him to become a charismatic, guru type.

>>>>And Castaneda did it as well by hireing people to foster the belief that the Don juan's tribe were the only ones engaged in those levels, and hence his group were the only ones permitted to show the levels, and this site takes it further to suggest that the yaqui never had those levels, because they enquired of literature written about some yaqui that had no generational memory of the levels. I'm not interested in the Victor Sanchezes or M. Tunneshendes any more than the Castanedas. That is not my point, I'm concerned about the restoration of lost levels of native existence and the continual genocide against it. I can go on and on about the different ways this is achieved, but I have a life to live. But the intention of the Taipo to write down from their perspective Native experience has always ended up a disservice. Even Castaneda's. A Taipo seeks to understand a natives reality in the only way they can, by making comparisons to their own. . . . . Fast forward to the last twenty years. You have people on this site going to seminars, with all their erroneus ideas about natives culled from books written by the Taipo about Natives, and their christian or secular upbringings and no awareness of what they are really getting into. . . . . Either way I don't care, I just know I'm still trying out and doing some of the technigues in the books, as well as my own tribes. But the Genocide advocaters will say, Bullshit, its all superstitious nonsense!" I of course allow for the possibility of fabrication, I wouldn't believe Castaneda's word anymore than I believe Linda just happened to run into someone that knew Carol from acupuncture class. That could mean what she thinks, or it could mean that Castaneda and them really didn't know what was going on. Or it could mean something else. But the books have many rings of truth, mainly the description of the levels, so even if Don Juan never existed, I know from my own experience that the levels are described in the native perspective, which would be odd if it was all made up. Cultures all over the world have the same levels in different perspectives, and though they are the same, they cannot be completely compared. But once again I'm only interested in Native restoration. That could be from physical worldly struggles to universal and beyond levels. This site is one of those levels, be it in a Taipo perspective, and it needs to be here.<<<<

I think you will find a great deal of agreement here with most of the points you make about Castaneda, who was very much coming from a European perspective in his books and lectures. Academics with many years experience in studying and living in native cultures have posited that the fact that there are some valid observations and practices in Castaneda's books strongly indicate that they derive from a combination of Castaneda having read a great deal of the published literature on shamanism (and that some of his stories are suspiciously similar to previously published ethnographic accounts) *and* that he probably had a few native informants at one time (particularly with respect to the handling of hallucinogenic substances). Castaneda's own response to some of the criticisms you are making was to viciously ridicule those who venerated Native American traditions and practices. (Some of us will remember that these riffs were usually capped by his version of a Native American chanting or dancing.) At any rate, it was clearly a sensitive subject for him.

I suggest, however, that there is a little more consciousness regarding the issue of "genocide" here than you have so far given us credit for, and that your assertion that this site is "seeking to erase" the restoration of the ability of Native Americans to perceive or acknowledge the existence of alternative realities is misplaced. And, BTW, I notice you have yet to answer my question with regard to the berdache.

Are you familiar with the writings of Ward Churchill (Creek/Cherokee Metis, co-director of AIM Colorado, and a prolific writer and thinker on Native American cultural issues and genocide)? In the collection of essays entitled, *Indians are Us? Culture and Genocide in Native North America*, Churchill has a number of things to say about Castaneda, whose writings he characterizes as "ersatz renderings of 'native' philosophy," and the "restoration" you refer to, including the following:

"Among those falling into this classification [of Indian or pretended-Indian spiritual hucksters], belong to what Christian Feest has branded the 'Faculty of Medicine' currently plying a lucrative 'Greater Europa Medicine Man Circuit,' are Wallace Black Elk, 'Brooke Medicine Eagle' (a bogus Cherokee; real name unknown), 'John Redtail Freesoul' (a purported Cheyenne-Arapaho; real name unknown), Archie Fire Lamedeer (Northern Cheyenne), 'Dhyani Ywahoo' (supposedly a 27th-generation member of the nonexistent 'Etowah' band of the Eastern Cherokees; real name unknown), 'Eagle Walking Turtle' (Gary McClain, an alleged Choctaw), 'Eagle Man' (Ed McGaa, Oglala Lakota), 'Beautiful Painted Arrow' (a supposed Shoshone; real name unknown). Although the success of such people 'is completely independent of traditional knowledge, just so long as they can impress a public impressed by the books of Carlos Castaneda,' most of the hobbyists I talked to noted they'd 'received instruction' from one or ore of these 'Indian spiritual teachers' and had now adopted various deformed fragments of Native American ritual life as being both authentic and their own."

-----
Re: Native view /Eurochristian-view
From: Carlos' ridicule of indians
Date: 11/14/99

In regards to your reference to Carlos putting down indeginious cultures, here's one specific.

Carlos once made fun of the idea that indians were in harmony with the land, saying that they didn't care about the land any more than westernized man. He offered as proof their practice of running whole herds of buffalo off cliffs just to kill a few.

I believed that when he said it, and repeated it to an anthropologist, who practically killed me. He went in to a long lecture about how frugal the indians were, and explained that the practice of running a herd off a cliff was designed to store meat for a whole year. The indians used every single portion, as evidenced by bones dug up from mass burial pits. They even broke the bones open, extracted the marrow, mixed it with lard and herbs, and created a nearly perfect food substance with a 5 year shelf life. They used all the skins, meat, and bones.

Carlos was careless and certainly not a supporter of american indian culture. It's more accurate to say he was just another robber of their culture for profit, probably not much better than the cowboys who killed off the buffalo for a quick profit on just the hides.

-----
Re: Native view /Eurochristian-view
From: Buffalo in the ravine
Date: 11/14/99

I am not defending CC's comment about native americans, but There is an Archeological site in the US that is very old 8-10k years ago, where there is evidence of coordinated group hunting tactics with groups using different projectile points to steer buffalo into a ravine, killing over 500 if I remember correctly, and only a fraction were taken, probably because buffalo meat is HEAVY! but they are preserved at the site and that seems to be what carlos makes refference to. But it is hardley indicative of Native American culture, as this was early in the span of culture. However, there is a danger of the image of "the noble savage" Romaticizing the native people's of the world as holding all the answers and them "knowing the true way" it is just as bad as the "drunken injun" image because it stands in the way of The People themselves defining who they are. I wish I had the book on that ravine site, but with a little research it'll pop up.

-----
Re: native view/ euro-christian view
From: Ahmo
Date: 11/13/99

Wow. very interesting and telling post,Thank you for the offering. What you talk about is the dilemma anthropology finds itself in, can the native's point of view be translated? infact it comprises an impass in which the subjectivity of all participants makes it all a confusing mess. What you say about the Elder's dilemma of the levels of the spirituality is certainly disturbing. Cultural property is a dificult concept and an even more difficult reality. The british museum has been the focus of the greek govt's attemts to get a carved marble piece from the acropolis back and the Museum staunchly refuses, because then they'd have to give it was all gathered under the tyrany of colonialism, so what right do they have to it. At the same time the modern greeks are just as distant to the ancient Greeks as the Brits are, so who's is it? The same thing with the Don Juan worlds. He was a yaqui by birth (according to what we're told) but grew up elsewhere durring the yaqui wars, and as it is in Mexico, could have come into contact with many different peoples and different techniques. Who do they belong to? His lineage is clearly not part of any one culture or tradition per say. Even if it was, there were usually specialists trained from early youth and that man or woman would tell you a different tale of how the world was made up and what were the going on of the group than a regular member of the group. Perhaps the best accounts on any Native American group's beliefs that I have read come from Tom Brown Jr. (unless there is a website saying he faked it? haha) he is a reputed tracker, and was taught by an Apache Scout/shaman. Now scout training was rigorous and a scout would not share the same view as say a female warrior, or anyone else Apache. Is that Apache culture, was this knowledge equally distributed among all or most? I ask you this just to probe into the question further, because it is really a serious matter. Tom Brown is Taipo(white?), does that invalidate his knowledge? It is in English, which may not have the appropriate tenses to completely convey the Apache world view, but does that make it valueless, or even Genocide? Is there an Apache (or who ever) world view? Most people even in the same household disagree on what makes up the world. In fact One of the detrimental effects anthropology has had on other cultures, was mapping them precisely and simply as if there are no contradictions within the culture, that there is one way that this is done and has always been done in X-clan and we shall alway do it as such. That leaves them in the past, as people who do not change Ideas, who merely learn culture and repeat it generation after generation. I know you can relate to this as it often the basis for discrimination. It is the discrepancies between worlds that give us glimpses of how vast infinity is. In fact I think that was DJ's message in one instance, that he taught carlos the sorcerers world to make him break with his own world, and in moving between them, see beyond both. Dj chose the sorcerers world because it was the only one he knew. I agree that anyone copyrighting certain realities is definately a problem, and similarities that abound across cultures make this an even more difficult problem. I would recomend to you to read grandfather by Tom brown Jr. if you haven't already. It certainly speaks of the difficulties even off a reservation, of a young man having knowledge that equals/rivals that of the elders and the difficulties involved it getting it recognized. I agree, CC has much truth, even if you can't get birth certificates for it, and there is no, one definitive anything, especially dealing with the the unknown.

I enjoyed your post very much, and wish you well.

Ahmo

-----
Re: native view/ euro-christian view:T. Brown
From: Nyai Tuppi
Date: 11/14/99

Native and non-native view is a subjective affair. I wouldn't go into any of the Newe observations on this site simply because there is little correlation between them and many of the condescendingly written books like "Shoshoni, sentinels of the rockies. Castaneda's books, if true, offer something more than physical struggle and despair over loss of physical and spiritual freedom for the Yaqui. That is their value. The brief history of the Yaqui essay here, has its value in describing physical politics and tribal survival.

Everyone will advertently or inadvertently find their own level. Tom brown's contribution is not invalid either. Although I haven't read his books. Are Joan Grant's books on "Far memories" invalid? I don't know. But she uses the biased language of the period she was living in when she wrote the books, she uses words like "Squaw".

Does Tom brown?

-----
Re: native view/ euro-christian view:T. Brown
From: Ahmo
Date: 11/14/99

Tom Brown is perhaps the best rendition of native belief systems and wilderness survival. Not in the army "roughing it" sense, but of truely being at home in the wilderness. I suggest you start with Grandfather, which is a later book but basically offers points in his teacher's life that tell a patchwork biography. Growing up avoiding the authorities who would put them on reservations, which although it may be an unlikely story, he has demonstrated time and again a level of awareness unlike any other, and not just in his tracking, which could hide almost anybody from the authorities. I suggest you check it out, as it may be a valuable resource to reclaim your heritage through skills perhaps long forgotten on many reservations. And no he doesn't use "squaw' or anything of the like. He was practically raised (from age of 8) by his teacher. It is an unlikely story, but he has the skills to prove it, so check it out, you will more than benefit.

Wishing you well on your path

Ahmo

-----
Re: native view/ euro-christian view:T. Brown
From: Ahmo
Date: 11/15/99

Thanks for the vote of confidence Corey. Perhaps you should take a look at Tom Brown jr.'s Field Guides, in it are all the techniques necessary to thrive in the wilderness, but it isn't as easy as it sounds, it takes alot of practice just to get the basics down. That is something in The CC books that has always intriegued me, the Time that DJ spent teaching CC to hunt. T. Brown does spend alot of time saying that it has profound effects on awareness, and his survival techniques are in line with the conservative approach to resources that is reputed to the Native Americans, i.e. Eat wild plants unless you really need clothes or have no other food option, and then he can tell you all about using every part. It ain't pretty though, having skinned a skunk and tanned it's hide (it was road kill, which is good for practice according to TB) It is a bit of a scary feeling, with death and all, but perhaps a regular hardened hunter with a .30-06 woudn't appreciate the effect it has on awareness. Not that I'm an expert, so T.brown is a good read, and wilderness moments and sorcery seem to go hand in hand. Also, perhaps the best book I can recommend for you who are exploring the validity of CC's teachings is morris Berman's The Reenchantment of The World, Probably not bookstore material, but certainly gives a good critique of anthropology and of certain habits that we can all fall into in regard to alternate realities. This book is dense, but goes into our western history of science and what it ruled out in it's prominance and how it can soffocate human beings. It is written by a professor of physics, but has no equations. A valuable resource for your quest, and all our confusion.

regards,

Ahmo

-----
Re: native view/ euro-christian view:T. Brown
From: Nyai Tuppi
Date: 11/27/99

Ahmo. I refrain from using books to learn about my "lost heritage" Invented indian ideas, if that is simply based on a reading. I would have no opinion on any of this If it was based on book study alone. How do you know that T.Brown's books are an accurate description of native life? What personal experiences in the native community are you basing that on? Are you native? Was T.brown? I believe you wrote he wasn't. I can see misconceptions because I'm on the inside. Although one misconception is that all natives are knowledgeable about American Indian culture, they have a better chance of being aware of misconceptions about native life that are not written in books. I don't think you can just go by gut feelings.

-----
Re: native view/ euro-christian view:T. Brown
From: Ahmo
Date: 11/27/99

Nyai, good to see you are back. Tom brown is white, but from the age of 8 he was raised by a Native American that NEVER lived on a reservation, whose grandfather took them to the most inhospitable places in the US, and they kept living with the traditional methods particular to his tribe. "native life" is now much different than it was then, and alot of the skills that were needed before hardware and camping store were around were lost. The culturecide practiced on reservations was quite meticulous and you cannot deny has had an effect. Tom Brown HAS THE SKILLS to back up his story, perhaps I shouldn't have said Native life, The skills he knows are the legacy of an Apache Scout and Shaman. If you just read it and see for yourself what it is. Get his handbook on wilderness survival, it takes alot of practice, but the skills are there. He has stayed mostly out of the limelight and trains many people to great proficiency in the skills so they can spread them, not his name. But like I said, you be the judge, but remember when you read him that He has the skills to prove it, and not just army wilderness survival skills, but track-you-on-solid-rock skills. He has been on innumerable missing persons cases all over the world and always found the body or person, and that is AFTER the cops and bloodhounds have trampled on the scene for days. Check out one of his schools, in CO or in NJ, Tracker Inc. The skills he holds I think are a treasure for mankind, not just natives. I think that maybe you don't recognize that you are very much part of Western culture, I don't care what rez you grew up on or whatever, you speak english fluently, you have imbibed the culture with your abc's. It seems that you have also learned the racism, discrediting a source by the color of its skin, more like the taipo than you think eh? I don't blame you for your skeptisism, but you would be leaving a stone unturned that may hide just what you are looking for. Tom brown's teacher had contacts with people of all colors, walking across the whole continent throughout his life, and always learned something because he was open and ready to learn, Skills are not inherited or 'in your blood' they are earned through hard work, and practice. maybe the assumptions are there and our self identity is the barrier that prevents us from learning. DO you think a afro-american feels self conscious when there is a white guy who out dances him? Will the Native american feel the same when there are flocks of Taipo who can out track him? Tom Brown when People magazine featured him in the 50 most interesting people or some garbage like that, started getting reporters showing up at his door, he didn't like it, so he took off for the woods, Naked, and didn't return for a year. He could not only 'survive' but live comfortably, perfectly at home in the wilderness. Can you? If you can't, then regardless of anyone's skin color, they are skills worth learning. And if you need a second opinion, look to the early emphasis on becoming a hunter in CC's books. I do hope you check them out, and that the books are of some help and inspiration.

I wish you well Ahmo

-----
Re: native view/ euro-christian view:T. Brown
From: Nyai Tuppi
Date: 11/29/99

Like I said, I hadn't read his books, so I don't know what he puts focus on. I was speaking more about native lore and spiritual practices. I don't see wilderness survival as being a native heritage, and I was not born on or ever lived on o rez. Many shoshone have resisted that lifestyle. I'm often accused of being a racist for making observations, It doesn't matter to me, because I know from experience the way I really feel about humanity. Every nationality at one point lived with the land, that is or was humanities culture. You wrote that the book was one the most accurate descriptions of native life, If you had wrote it was one of the most accurate descriptions of wilderness survival, I wouldn't seem like a racist now. See the difference? I may be skeptical, because I have had several non-natives rant to me about a book they read that was the epitome of native life. I read it and find that it is solely based on books written by other non-natives, and that the person that reccomended it, didn't even have any knowledge of the culture to compare it with. I like what you have to say more than any others that post here. I knew a cree native that said half jokingly that if the government wanted to cut down the native population, they could just have a test of living out in the wilderness for a year, to keep their native documentation. Since many natives now couldn't live a week in the wilderness, few would be able to pass. I know some natives that believe that wilderness survival is what makes them native, but I think that is another invented idea. Love and kisses! Nyai Tuppi

-----
Re: native view/ euro-christian view:T. Brown
From: Ahmo
Date: 11/29/99

Nyai, The wilderness survival I stressed as a kind of proof of the source that TBjr. had access to. He spends much time on the spiritual teachings as well, as his teacher was a scout and a shaman. The link with the wilderness is something TB stresses as integral to becoming sensitive to 'supernatural forces'. I guess that for Tom Brown's teacher, his spirituality was not 'philosophy' but practice. the natural world had with it encoded the way of life, not the way of humanity or of such and such a group etc. I think that is also part of the culturecide that has happened, the judeo-christian distinction of humans having superiority over all creation by virtue of it being created for human use (read:consumption) I find that the wilderness holds much power and merging with it following its rhythm you gain access to much more than through locking in on the 'human domain' exclusively. ( I hope it doesn't sound like an accusation, because that's not how I mean it) The meetings with inorganic beings and much of what CC wrote about happened in the wilderness as well, and as I pointed out earlier, he also learned a bit of the ways of the hunter. AN intersesting tid-bit that I read last night also should provoke a bit more research into the subject of role of wilderness in all our development. Before I say that, I do hear you on the rigid frames placed on non-euro people, like that Cree man's comment makes me think, the images of the past serve to deny that we exist in the present, and that the value of a 'Native' is measured by how well he/she personifies our romantic images of them. "All available evidence indicates that, when Aborigines lived as hunter-gatherers they were lean and physically fit, and free of the epidemic 'lifestyle diseases' which plague them once they make the transition to a sedentary, westernised lifestyle. Obesity, diabetes and coronary heart disease occur at alarming frequencies in Aboriginal communities all over the country [Australia] Diabetes is a particularly serious problem. In the 20-50 year age group, the prevalence of diabetes is more than ten times higer in Aborigines than in Australians of European ancestry. The question must be asked - if lifestyle change causes diabetes in Aborigines, can it be treated by reversing the process? This was the Idea behind a study in 1982, when 14 Aborigines from a remote community in Western Australia, ten with diabetes, four without, participated in a study which saw them revert to a traditional lifestyle. This study was only possible because these people had retained the knowledge and ability to live successfully as hunter-gatherers- despite living a sedentary, westernised lifestyle in the years prior to this study. Metabolic tests were conducted before and after seven weeks of living off the land. The results were striking, with a marked improvement in all metabolic abnormalities of diabetes, plus a reduction in a number of risk factors for heart disease. Seven weeks of traditional lifestyle were enough to substancially reverse a diseasewhich took years to develop in the urban environment. The public health implications are enormous. Not only is Diabetes potentially reversible in Aborigines, but potentially preventable as well. The results of the study are a dramatic illustration of the relationship between lifestyle and health. There were three major components of traditional lifestyle which would have contributed to the improved metabolic control - regular physical activity, low fat, high fibre diet and weight loss. These three factors are all a natural part of the hunter gatherer lifestyle and in the urban context all have to be addressed separately. The epidemic of lifestyle diseases such as diabetes in Aboriginal communities justifies the development of community-wide programs aimed at treatment and prevention. Prevention is better than cure and the cluster of lifestyle diseases such as obesity, diabetes, hypertension, cardiovascular disease and hyperlipidemias will all respond to changes in diet and exercise. The challenge for Aboriginal communities is to devise appropriate strategies to encourage health promoting change and the key is that such programs be designed and run by Aborigines. Unless Aborigines 'own' such programs, it is unlikely they will be taken up over the long term. The success of the 'Back-to-the-bush' study was probably due in part to its 'Aboriginality'." (taken from Koorie Plants, Koorie People, Zola & Gott, 1990:x-xi, Koorie Heritage Trust.)

I hope it was worth the read for you. This was taken from a book that was By the Koorie, for the Koorie and anyone interested in the history of the relationship between the Koorie and theior home lands. It gives detailed info on plants and their uses, so that the knowledge and ability to go back to the bush will not be lost to them. Granted it is not a solution in any sence, but as you pointed out, it is rapidly becoming not an option, due to the lack of Know how. Tom brown spreads this know how, and has it inextricably linked to a culture that is ancient, and perhaps lost in its original progenitors. The above quote I typed to show how vital it could be, and that it shouldn't be shunned, as it deserves great attention.

O book I think you might like is Johannes Fabian's TIME AND THE OTHER, a gruesome critique of the treatment of the Non-european other by anthropologists and how anthropology by it's mere existence keeps the Other alien from him, thus easily exploited and violated. It's a short one, but it gives great fodder to critique Anthropology. But T.brown is worth a try.

Respectfully yours (and thanks for the kisses!)

Ahmo

-----
Re: native view/ euro-christian view:T. Brown
From: Theophilos
Date: 11/29/99

Ahmo wrote:

There were three major components of traditional lifestyle which would have contributed to the improved metabolic control - regular physical activity, low fat, high fibre diet and weight loss.

This is an interesting discussion. Ahmo could you clarify something from the above quote. The study states that two of the major components were high fiber and low fat. I'm assuming that as hunter/gatherers the aboriginies ate meat. Do they give details of that diet?

One of the things I have read concerning the native people of northern Canada and Greenlandic Eskimos is that they have lived off a high fat diet consisting of butter, cheese, fish and meat for most of their history. Yet coronary disease and other metabolic abnormalities were non-existent until they came into contact with western culture. This stuff is fascinating.

t

-----
Re: native view/ euro-christian view:T. Brown
From: erik grafstrom
Date: 11/29/99

"One of the things I have read concerning the native people of northern Canada and Greenlandic Eskimos is that they have lived off a high fat diet consisting of butter, cheese, fish and meat for most of their history. Yet coronary disease and other metabolic abnormalities were non-existent until they came into contact with western culture. This stuff is fascinating."

I think that part of what the traditional diet is, is based on the local environment; for eons people stayed relatively in one location and developed a system of foods compatible to the environment. In the far north you eat seal blubber, that is what is offered, in the tropics, fruit is incorporated.

Now the problem is that modern man lives in fabricated environment, like heated/air conditioned building, moves all over the place and spends more time and energy on mental persuits.

-----
Re: native view/ euro-christian view:T. Brown
From: Ahmo
Date: 11/30/99

Not True! We do not spend more time and energy on mental pursuits, those of us living in fabricated environments that is. We work 40+hour weeks just to get by and then also Need more to keep the fabriocated environment going. Still using the Australians as an example, their mental pursuites dwarf those of us weekend warriors, people are still amazed by the complexity of their mental lives, perhaps now more than ever. We spend more time on our technology than on our mental pursuits and even those 'professionals' whom we pay to 'think for us' don't make up the difference in time spent on mental pursuits. The image that people who we see as living 'simply' must be simpletons is so far from the truth. and if you trace it back it is the legacy of the european justifications for colonialism which also fathered racism. Careful on that one. I fully agree on the fabricated environment point though. Ahmo

-----
Re: native view/ euro-christian view:T. Brown
From: erik grafstrom
Date: 11/30/99

Almo,

By mental persuits I should clarify, I don't mean something necessarily productive.

But I think that modern life is far more weighted to what I will term "mental" activity. Consider the hours spent either reading or watching television on average. This activity needs a particular type of food. Imagine a comparison of this activity with people living 10,000 years ago. Not only did they live differently in relation to their environment, but I think their activity, which is what consumes the food energy, was different.

-----
Re: native view/ euro-christian view:T. Brown
From: Ahmo
Date: 11/30/99

Erik, Granted, but mental pursuits I take as using the mind to decypher reality. Watching television may be somewhat of a mental pursuit, (more of a mental pacifier) but watching animals in the natural environment takes a keen mental agility and sensetivity, and if you look at the world as described by hunter-gatherer type cultures (as crude as that label might be) it is a complex world with much depth, deeper than I have been able to follow in most cases. This mental life gets overlooked because we associate food gathering and hunting as subsistance work, and in western culture we have a distinction between what we do to make a living and what we do to further our mental life. This division is not present in many cultures, and is often superimposed on other cultures by western ethnographers. To continue on the Australian front, Aboriginal hunter-gatherers moved in a land filled with spirits of their ancestors, along with the spirits of the Dreaming, the waterholes they drank from had history, and particular effects. they were living in a land imbued with meaning, as they moved through the landscape that is/was the setting for their mythology (mental life) so to go out and gather berries would be like a trip to a museum, where to go, what to avoid, all these things are rooted in an understanding that takes an extremely keen awareness to understand. I think the bias against this sort of mental life is the Idea that TV or Printed word is somehow more 'mentally stimulating' than the perceived drudgery of the H-G lifestyle, comes from a degree of ethnocentrism, beliving that our whatever is more advanced and therefore more readily addresses the 'mind'. this is a peculiar custom of westerners of separating mind and body, who we 'really are' and who everybody sees us as at work etc. These identity politics are not present in every culture and therefore are not universal, not 'human'. Also, the moving through the world as a H-G, is an incredible feat of problem solving, with your life on the line, it blows chess way out of the water, and by necessity involves you totally in your actions. So maybe what the problem is, is that when watching tv ONLY a bit of your mind is stimulated/used and so that is the casue of the classification of 'Mentally stimulating.' But a Documentry on lions is not really engaging you in a full, 'real' way. Part of the belief that tV and books take us beyond those who don't have them, is from the western cultural view that travel equals knowledge, and that staying in one place is ignorance, thus being transported by a book or a movie is 'movement' exposure to new things etc. this gives us plenty of fodder for our condecention of those who have not traveled as extensively as we or haven't read as much. It also places those who are 'isolated' in ignorance by default, but that is our own doing. Many people who have lived in the same village know all about inorganic beings and sorcery, they are also capable of incredible cognative complexity, far from being simple. But then they get TV. . .

Replica Watches  Replica Watches

this is why I have trouble admitting that we have such a rich mental life compared to others without our technology, that may be just part of the justification for our slavery to it.

You mentioned something about dietary needs in relation to the demands of our mental life, please elaborate a bit on that. Just as a bit of a joke, what is the optimum diet for someone sitting on their ass all day reading & watching TV?

Laugh with me,

Ahmo

-----
Re: native view/ euro-christian view:T. Brown
From: Ahmo
Date: 11/30/99

Actually T., I quoted that, (can't take the credit y'know) and the high fibre, low fat diet was one of the components, the other two were physical activity, and weight loss in the case of the people in the study. Yes the aboriginal peoples of Australia ate meat, all sorts of meat, like kangaroo, emu (like an ostrich), goanna, smaller lizards, and fish for the coastal peoples. But the vegetable/plant portion of their diet was much higher than the meat portion, an estimated 80-85% of the diet consisted of plant life. the hunting served to supplament their diet but it was hardly everyday fare, until European setlement came. the hunting became easier with the introduction of sheep, which were found by the hundreds grazing, and they didn't run away when you went up to them, that way meat became much more prevailant, also wild meat is different than domesticated meat in nutrients and fat content, so modern statistics on meat are difficult to apply to these cases. Goanna is high in fat but it is in the form of an oil which is somehow cleansing to the digestive tract and good for some illnesses. Tom Brown Jr. has said that he doesn't eat meat when he is out in the wilderness, he doesn't kill animals for food unless he has to for clothing or other things, which he doesn't need very often because of his extensive knowledge of other methods. I think his attitude is one that animals are already dying by the thousands from so many other causes that he wishes to avoid doing it whenever he can. That's just from what he's said in the books, so you can check it out as well.

Ahmo

-----
Re: native view/ euro-christian view:T. Brown
From: Ahmo
Date: 11/30/99

Also, that passage states that these three conponents are a natural part of the traditional lifestyle, whereas they are not part of the westrern lifestyle and must be pursued separately, like going to the gym to get the exercise, taking special care to avoid junk food and counting calories and otherwise being consious of your diet, and weight-loss is certainly not a natural part of western lifestyles, just look at the industry that has built up around it, so these become extra-curricular activities in a sedentary western lifestyle, as opposed to the Hunter-Gatherer lifestyle as practiced by the Australia Aboriginal people, and in some places (reportedly) it still is. also the gathering of the food was a simple task that took very little of their day, their knowledge of the abundant food sources, and gathering methods that ensured they would remain plentiful,cooperation along with the development of 'technology' that kept the bush alive, reduced the amount of work needed to the absolute minimum. In fact missionaries would take children away from Aboriginal families when they had been moved to houses when they looked in the cupboards and saw them empty. What they didn't understand was that the land was so plentiful that they had just to step outside and grab the food from anywhere, Europeans without the knowledge of all the edible species in the area would fail to recognize anything they didn't know as food themselves. The book I listed in the post has alot of details on the variety of the plants with pictures, preparation and photos, in an attempt to document the knowledge, but far too little attention has been paid to the Aboriginal populations and their ancestral ways in Australia and the world over, so if you are looking for detailed nutritional analysis of the plants and overall diet, I'm afraid I don't know of any, personally, but I haven't really looked for it much either, so it may be out there. There are some studies of wild & undomesticated plants and their nutritional value as compared to standard agricultural fare, and in some nutrients the former has 200% more nutritious content than the latter. But again, not enough on this out there and the useful knowledge is getting more diffuse in this department.

searching

Ahmo

-----
Re: Dropping names
From: Leonard Zimmerman
Date: 11/29/99

>>But I'm on the defense for shoshone now, because they are my tribe and your going to mess them up, just like you're doing to the Yaqui. I was alright with you at first because I thought you had something more to say about native life than physical struggle. You pawn yourself off as an expert on native life, which is apparently only about land issues, and if someone from that tribe doesn't agree, well they must not really be. It puts me on the defensive that you are going to inject those beliefs on my tribe. Its such a typical custom of non-natives to conceptualize native life from non-native priorities.>>

Excuse me, please tell me how I am going to mess up the Shoshone. First of all, I no longer work at the legal organization which has members involved in Native issues. Secondly, what am I doing to the Yaqui? The short history on the SA website was part of a paper I wrote for a class about the Mexican revolution. My professor was involved with some political issues regarding the Yaquis and helped me with the source material for the paper. Do you not feel that people are interested in the physical struggle of those people? When I posted an excerpt on a mailing list, I received over fifty requests for the entire history. Since I am not a Yaqui, what else would I have written? Even you said, "The brief history of the Yaqui essay here, has its value in describing physical politics and tribal survival." (Re:native view/ euro-christian view:T. Brown Date: 11/14/99) Somehow, between then and now, your view changed.

The additional information regarding "plastic medicinemen" came from Tribal Elders who clearly wish that non natives not participate in ceremonies in which they are charged money. Their feeling is that this is disrespectful of their religious beliefs. These are their words coming out of their mouths. Not mine.

I am not trying to pawn myself off as an "expert" on Native life. Iíve basically only presented historical information which I have researched as well as information which comes directly from Tribal Elders. So the question I have is what beliefs do you feel that I am trying to inject on the Shoshone? I only offered my home when Carrie Dann and Rip Lone Wolf were in my area to obtain support for their struggle against the Bureau of Land Management. I was invited to visit the Western Shoshone Defense Project afterwards. Are you telling me that I should have turned down that invitation because *you* feel that I am going to mess them up? I donít understand this line of reasoning.In addition, the one of the reasons I questioned your claim of being a Shoshone was also because you wrote: "Does 'Carrie and Mary Dann' know you are trying to lead a Newe to the rez? If they are Newe and not adopted sioux like so many shoshone became, I suspect they would laugh their head off." (Newe history, Date: 11/10/99)

It seemed odd to me that you would not have known that Mary and Carrie Dann could not possibly be "adopted" Sioux, since they have lived in Nevada their entire life. Since they are so famous, almost every Native American person I have ever met knows them. These would include Native people from other tribes as well.

So forgive me if I have mistaken your identity. I can see that you take it very seriously. Actually, if you were to see my eyes you would know that I am not a participant in genocide against the Native community. Consciously or unconsciously. You do know that eyes are the secret to oneís soul, do you not? What does it mean when you meet someone whose eyes are spinning vortexes of light?

-----
Re: Dropping names
From: Nyai Tuppi
Date: 11/30/99

I have not changed my view your essay. My attitude changed on your motivation for writing it, because you seemed to have a an inability to comprehend my posts. What I can say for Corey Weber is that he appears to have good comprehension skills, whether he agrees with any of the posts, I can't say, but it appears he atleast understands most of them. Going by his responses alone. He may even have got it that I'm not attached to C.C.&CO. Maybe.

But you consistently twist and mis-read what I write. Sometimes in ways that defy logic. For example: "Since I have a very gracious letter of thanks from Rip Lone Wolf, then director of the WSDP, I can only wonder if you are, as you state, a Shoshone yourself." That is the complete sentence. It is as if you are saying, because you were giving a letter of thanks by a member of my tribe, that you now have been bestowed the ability to see who is really Newe. Sounds like Wizard Of Oz stuff. Of course you may have not meant it like that. Another recent one is the Danns and the adopted sioux reference. As I explained, Nevada-Basin shoshone have resisted reservational life to a large extent, and I hadn't wrote that the Dann's lived on a rez. But many members of the native community engage in the sioux way of doing certain ceremonies. Even some western shoshone. I was involved with the inipi ceremony, until I got fed up with the sioux tribes notion that the major ceremonies, like the sweatlodge, pipe ceremonies, sundance, and hopiyla, all originated with their tribe Exclusively. The Newe had our own ways of doing all those ceremonies, but some have adopted the sioux ways, and may not even realize it. I like talking with you about this, but I should'nt have to clarify so much. But then I am going to avoid writing anymore insulting accusations, or assumptions. No, I don't expect you to go back on the time track and change your intereactions with The Danns. or Rip Lone Wolf. I would hope in the future when you come across a Newe, that you are aware that there is more to the tribe than what is physically present. We do not all feel exactly the same, and never did. The shoshone originally did not have chiefs, we were self proficient, but would come together in clans for various occasions. This is where the "cult babble" idea bothers me. I was having journeys into the other worlds via newe practices ten years before I heard of C.C's books. Shamans and the like the world over, in different cultures journeyed to other worlds long before C.C. came into this world. So if he made up the characters and story lines, he didn't make up the actual practices. I have never taken a hallucigenic drug even once, and yet when I came across his books, I decided I'll see if these techniques for the practices are valid. Not the drug use, but the waking up in dreams, shouting at objects in dreams to see energy, gazing, ect.. My main focus was to see if they were as effective as my shoshone techniques. And I can say that I proved atleast to myself that they work.

I know you'll probably take this as a defense for C.C. I can't help that, My defense is for the fact that C.C. did not make up these practices, he just put his own names to them. If its cult babble, you're saying my tribes and any other tribes original technigues for these practices are cult babble and invalid. The eastern religions have these practices and their techniques for achieving them. So that is what I'm refering to as the genocide of the levels. When you say that these practices originated with Castaneda and were part of his fiction, that is dismissing every culture the world over that engages in these practices. You see? If you want to separate from him in all ways possible, fine, good luck. But the practices are not his. Just the names. Meditation? His word would be 'Gazing' which is open eyed meditation, which the Tibetan Buddhists have several techniques. Working out in the gym? Tensing and releasing of structure members, his Term: Tensegrity, that is what you are still doing in another form. So the next time you are gazing through your third eye, or shutting off your internal dialoque via eastern techniques, remember that you have'nt really left what you call "Cult babble". But I mean this in fun. The next time you come across another Newe ask them: What is "Dying for awhile"? And what is "Dying as a shoshone"? and see what they say. They are two different newe ideas. Ask more than one. You will likely get more than one answer. I would like to meet you and look into your eyes and everything else about you. But I don't agree that one has a soul, one is soul or Mukua in Newe. That last question: Is that something Carlos or Harley said to you? I heard the chinese say that when a person's whites around the pupil can be seen completely, that the person is off balance. Do you think you will recognize me, if we meet, and I don't announce myself as Nyai Tuppi?

-----
Magical passes and exercise
From: Bernie Rooney (definately not flinthood)
Date: 11/15/99

I live in the country, haul hay etc. I find that Tensegrity is in no way superior to exercise. It can be extremely alienating to tuck yourself away somewhere and do things you don't tell anyone else about; because if you did you would be "exposed", wouldn't you? It's enough keeping an eye out for snakes at work to stay aware and alert. Which reminds me what is behind the origin of the animal passes taught at seminars; eg. the snake pass (Westwood). Bernie

-----
Re: Magical passes and exercise
From: Bernie
Date: 11/16/99

I admit it; I'm an ex-Cleargreen junkie. But I think I'm capaable of behaving myself none-the-less. I was asking a question about sustained action's opinion on the origin of the snake pass and other animal passes.For limited intellects, such as those attracted to cults, the reason for their use by Cleargreen is becoming more and more apparent to me

Bernie.

-----
Affection and Potential of an Individual
From: J. Stender
Date: 11/16/99

It is tempting to think that we are callous and that is why the warriors path outlined by Carlos Castaneda, appealed to us. If that is so, and we now decide that affection among people are an emotional feature worth pursuing, then a lot of work is in front of us.

Even among people who grew up with abundant and openly expressed love, human interaction and relationships build on and in pursuit of love, are a continuos source of challenge. That is naturally so because love is not just an emotion. Everything we do is explained and understood in cooperation with our thought process. Consequently, our emotional expressions will in part be directed by our ability to intellectually understand, at best, the framework in which our hearts act.

If we really are callous then maybe all the time doing the Castaneda stuff would have been more valuably used in cultivating affection and learning to express it. On the other hand, knowing your self is a good foundation on which to consider the nature and expressions of affection, especially the partiality many people practice when it comes to giving affection.

Most people, especially couples and families, are very stingy with affectionate feelings to anyone who is not a member or potential member of their group or clan. This I find to be a contradiction to the nature of affection and love. Affection can have direction, but it is basically like light. It will shine regardless of whom is there, and what ever happens to be there will be lit up.

One of the practical cornerstones in the Castaneda teachings that appeals to me is the strife to do my best. It sounds very reasonable that mankind´s future evolution should be through mental and spiritual processes and life as such is then a constant expansion of our understanding of the individual´s potential. But in this context, a quite ordinary aspect of life has puzzled me, to say the least.

You see, the teachings has imbued me with an attitude that my life was spend on something worthy whereas most other people were practically speaking wasting their lives. In my more refined moments I have understood that we are all players, but still, understood with the notion of reservation that most players are manipulated as opposed to the few with free will and purpose. This attitude I have suspected for a long time but not before the SA let the cat out of the bag, the cat of egoism and narcism, did I acknowledge this perspective. For that I really owe SA great thanks.

Now, the aspect or ordinary life that has puzzled me in connection with realizing your potential is women. I like women. I like their smell, their subtlety of mind, and the way they dress up in funny ways with paint in the face and all, not to mention their unique and harmonious curves. If a female, any female, take a liking to me, I will stand on my head almost any day of the week to make her smile. My normal serious, controlled and purposeful way of acting evaporates when I am with an open minded female and my mind is constantly occupied with finding ways to make her change expressions so as to see as much as possible of her. That is just one facet, and I could gladly go on filling a couple of pages with other affectionate interaction with females.

If I do not take part in affectionate interaction with women then those sides of myself will never surface but disappear in oblivion. In other words, the emotions that are brought out in those interaction represent a major reservoir of potential that I cannot reach, cannot exercise, unless I let myself go, and breathe in the sweet air of woman.

-----
Re: Affection and Potential of an Individual
From: sven
Date: 11/16/99

when we recap we must remember to breathe out and let it all go. It is the sense of self that decides what we keep. Eliminating the ego or the self must include not making decisions about what to keep. Thankyou for the good example of why to recap, and how letting it 'all' go is so important. circumstances don't determine us, they reveal us. this may also shine a litle light on how some form of physical movement is needed to offset the deleterious effects of energy saved without proper storage facilities.

-----
old florinda - death certification
From: rdm
Date: 11/16/99

Dan / Rich -

1.) What do we know about old Florinda's association with Howard? What has he said about her? Has she been validated or invalidated by SA? If so; how, why, etc...? If she was real, this lends credence to "the myth." If she was not - then...who was she?

2. What evidence has SA found that furthers the notion that Carlos physically died - say, in the form of firsthand accounts from coroner's office people, etc.? For a death certificate to be issued, I would think there would have to be an eye-witness account and verification of the body which was presented to the crematorium.

3. What do we know about where Kylie has gone? I get an interesting vibe about her.

4. In thinking about the Tensegrity movements and their origin - I do find it interesting that while doing them I would often go into some sort of energetic trance and come up with "new" movements I would later learn as "officially" new movements in the proceeding workshops. (Many times they would come to me while I was there - just moments before...) All of which suggests to me, that if Howard was able to induce a higher state of energy in Carlos as I experienced, it is quite feasible that he or anyone else would also come up with the Tensegrity movements in the same manner as I did.

-----
Re: old florinda - death certification
From: Kevin Peterson
Date: 11/16/99

"2. What evidence has SA found that furthers the notion that Carlos physically died - say, in the form of firsthand accounts from coroner's office people, etc.? For a death certificate to be issued, I would think there would have to be an eye-witness account and verification of the body which was presented to the crematorium."

The times I've tried to get information from some of the people involved, I get "shifty" replies, avoidance, or outright hostility (this includes the M.D. that signed the death certificate, I know her personally). I haven't figured out if it's because of some legal restraint or what. It's very "fishy", but doesn't surprise me.

Your experience with the movements is interesting. My understanding of the "movements" (not necessarily "tensegriry") is that they're supposed to change over time as your body changes. The thing is, you're taught movements that are particular to your "body structure," but as your body structure changed you were supposed to arrive at the subtle changes in the movements to keep the required physical "pressure" and continue the "deconstruction" of your body to arrive at "formlessness" (what is sometimes called the feline body). The thing with Tensegrity is th

-----
Re: old florinda - death certification
From: greggabi@aol.com
Date: 11/17/99

Hi rdm,

I have a little information to your question #2...

Since I just could not trust what anyone else might have to say about the subject of Carlos' death, I had to go find out for myself...

I went to the mortuary and talked with the owner, and she assured me that Carlos body was cremated, and that it was intact at the time of cremation. And that the death certificate I had in my hand was her mortuary's certification that this was so.

I was lucky she even talked to me, because this was a VERY private mortuary, and I just walked in off the street. She did talk because I told her of my belief in the metaphysical claims Carlos had made and that I, at that time, wanted to confirm for myself whether or not he died the death of a sorcerer, or that of an ordinary man.

She laughed (not unkindly) at hearing what I said. It must have sounded ludicrous to someone in the regular world who deals with the dead constantly, to hear what had seemed still barely plausible to me at that time. Nevertheless the lady was gracious and I sensed no dishonesty in her demeanor.

That day the door closed on my wondering about how Carlos died.

Greg

-----
Re: old florinda - death certification
From: Calixto
Date: 11/17/99

RDM:

"What do we know about old Florinda's association with Howard? What has he said about her? Has she been validated or invalidated by SA?"

Good question. In fact, what the heck are ALL of these people doing, including Howard, since none of them have been validated by SA? Let me clear this up right now by stating that we have not validated ANY of Cleargreen's or Castaneda's claims to date, and thus they should definitely stop making such claims until such time as they have been fully validated by SA personnel (when and if).

No problem. We're on the case.

-----
Japanese cult refuses to admit man is dead
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/17/99

I was watching japanese TV this morning. They've had higher cult awareness since that japanese guru tried to poison people in the subway.

The news was focusing on another japanese cult. This one purports to bring people to enlightenment.

They interviewed one former teacher who said they had 3 day intensive workshops, for $900. She said that at first the group was pretty reasonable and goal oriented, but as time went on the guru became more and more powerful until people would not do anything without a word from the guru. She said the end result of the teachings was to produce clones of the guru.

The guru's word was final in the group. One female member had a husband who was dying in the hospital. The guru ordered him removed from the hospital so that he could treat him.

The man died. When the police found the body it had already begun to mummify. Unfortunately, they couldn't tell the time of death because mummification at room temperature can take from 3 weeks to 3 months.

The cult insisted that the man was still alive, despite the brown and blue spots covering his body. The members smiled as they were interviewed, discussing the serenity they had aquired as a result of following the teachings. "We never felt so much solidarity!", they said.

When asked how they could say that the mummified corpse of the man was still alived they pointed out that his fingernails hadn't turned blue yet, and that the soles of his feet showed no decomposition, as would be normal for a dead man. They further pointed out that he had a bowel movement each morning, indicating he was still alive.

The corner was interviewed next. He said that the finger nails and soles of feet don't contain any fat, thus they rarely discolor the way the rest of the body does. The said that the bowel movement was actually rotting flesh oozing out of the man's anus.

The cult insisted that the man was alive and under the care of the guru, and that if police hadn't removed and done an autopsy on the body things would have been fine. They accused the police of murder.

-----
Re: Japanese cult refuses to admit man is dead
From: Bernie
Date: 11/17/99

>>>>The cult insisted that the man was alive and under the care of the guru, and that if police hadn't removed and done an autopsy on the body things would have been fine. They accused the police of murder.

There is a Hector Castaneda, still alive I believe and in jail. He made pornographic movies. Excellent candidate donít you think for a resurrection?Is there any recommended amount of money that subscribers to SA can pay to help keep this website going? I think itís top notch, even if untimely. It reminds one of Nietzches Wagnerian polemics (eg; Neitzche contra Wagner), which few paid attention to...to the cost of some six million Jews by all indications. These polemics are still desperately lacking a real audience, and I fear the same will be yet true for Sustained Action.I still recall my fear at Westwood when Carol Tiggs intoned the audience to join in with her in the "bad" song. She threatened against those who would not join in. I kept my mouth shut through the whole song, and boy didnít I feel the cult/peer pressure around me for doing so! When Carolís stare found me I could only feel sickened and sad for humanity. Yes folks, we have been tom-boollied.Bernie

-----
Re: Japanese cult refuses to admit man is dead
From: rdm
Date: 11/17/99

I kinda liked the bad song. helped me get over my unfounded guilt complexes.

What does SA say about the shadows that zoom across my floor? I find it interesting that it was only after I mentioned them to Carlos that they were they revealed to be flyers by him at the next seminar. Previously I had no idea what they might be - as they are much smaller than the gigantic shadows he typically described.

-----
Re: Japanese cult refuses to admit man is dead
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/17/99

I remember those from my drug days. They were an expected result of "4 way windowpane" acid.

If you want a physical explanation, floaters, variations in wetness of the eyeball, chemical changes on the surface of the inner eye.

-----
Re: floaters
From: rdm
Date: 11/18/99

dan - I have lots of floaters. (And I did a lot of 'pane, too.) These are definitely not floaters. They appear very alive. And quick. And black. The first time I saw one I thought it was a cat or something zooming out from under my couch. I screamed to the girl I was talking to on the phone 'cause I thought something was in the house. (I also had absolutely no prior knowledge about black shadows being flyers that zoom across the floor - although, interstingly, form that point on such a description became part of the seminar gospel.)

Anyway, as an adendum to Carlos' habit of embellishing things: I'm assuming he was directing his comment at me when he said at a seminar right after I told him about the shadows I had seen that "A guy told me about black shadows that zip across the floor. Yes, those are the flyers. He asked me if he could step on them and kill them. (Laughing) No. You can't step on them!" For what it's worth, I never asked him if you could step on them to "kill" them. I therefore thought he was probably referring to someone else's comment. He also went on to say how these IBs must have some sort of physicality as they "need a place to land," as it were. And that that was the reason for living in treehouses - too small a landing strip for flyers. But given what I know now, and given that he always addressed one my questions at the seminars, I'm assuming the comment was "directed" at me. This all proves little, to be sure. But may point further at Carlos' proclivity for taking an idea, running with it and giving it his own creative spin.

I get the feeling that in many ways he had the sensibility of a sociopath who has no notion or concern regarding truth versus falsehoods. The sociopaths I have known are seamless liars, extremely intelligent people, extremely engaging people, and extremely good at manipulating people. Natural leaders with one tragic downfall - whatever that might be - usually it's a psychosis that further takes a self-destructive form as alcoholism or drug abuse or unchecked delusional egomania. Frequently they're just manipulative, mean assholes. I have yet to put Carlos in that classification - but he sure did take a lot of money from me, money expended based upon truths espoused by him, which I now know were shameless prevarications. Reminds me of my cousin who embezzled 20 million dollars. When his story was aired on "Unsolved Mysteries" one of the people he bamboozled said she would gladly give him the money all over again - even after it was proven he was a no good cheat. I suppose such is the power of an engaging personality and/or "true friend" to the lonely mortal. Well, I'm certainly wouldn't give Carlos my money all over again - but shucks, you couldn't help but love the little guy, eh? I guess dreams are hard to come by these days.

-----
Re: floaters
From: Logan
Date: 11/18/99

rdm writes:"Anyway, as an adendum to Carlos' habit of embellishing things: I'm assuming he was directing his comment at me when he said at a seminar right after I told him about the shadows I had seen that "A guy told me about black shadows that zip across the floor. Yes, those are the flyers. He asked me if he could step on them and kill them. (Laughing) No. You can't step on them!"

Taking the flyer out of the context of Castaneda and his world, have you ever really thought about the validity of a predator for man? What a concept! Has any scholar ever proposed the idea that perhaps man may have a predator?

Logan

-----
Re: floaters
From: Linda Zoontjens
Date: 11/18/99

Logan wrote:

>>>Taking the flyer out of the context of Castaneda and his world, have you ever really thought about the validity of a predator for man? What a concept! Has any scholar ever proposed the idea that perhaps man may have a predator?>>>

Perhaps not a scholar, but there are the books of Robert Monroe of which one describes beings which live on the emotion of peopleís love. Also, there is a description of a flyer-like creature in one of Whitley Strieber books dealing with aliens.

-----
Re: floaters
From: rdm
Date: 11/18/99

First - how does one copy material from one post and place it in the following reply?

Secondly - A friend of mine told me about a book that deals with such flyer type beings - I'll get it from him. When I'm not so tired I'll relate some more flyer stories.

Thirdly - After reading the Chronolgy of Patty Partin I am even more in awe of the depth of fabrication coming from these people - and not only worry about the state of my mental health when I believed them - but have to wonder what kind of people are these folks? As nuts as they seem on one hand - they display great cohesiveness of thought on the other. I wish there were some concrete answers - say, from a disgruntled ex-patriot. It's hard to believe that so many pathological liars could be found let alone be so united in thought and/or their cause. I know so little about cults - but feel nonetheless that I was a perfect example of one who completely fell under their spell.

I will remain forever in awe of Carlos' et al.'s level of imaginative duplicity. They really deserve some kid of award - admittedly crammed up their collective butts - perhaps with that candle Carlos talked about so often lit at the end.

-----
Re: floaters
From: Bernie
Date: 11/20/99

Indeed they (floaters or whatever) are an out- there reality. There was an article in astronomy magazine last year about an astro-physicist who was detecting large black objects bombarding earth. He measured them up to 30 miles across and considered them to be ice balls of some type. His colleagues have been castigating him for years over this research. But he must be on to something to get into a very reputable magazine. What's for sure is that they are some form of interference like solar flares, maybe...maybe they are clumps of anti-matter.....

I certainly wouldn't put too much stock in the whole affair. Bernie .

-----
Nagual Lujan
From: Leonard Zimmerman
Date: 11/17/99

It has been stated that the so-called "Nagual" Lujan, from whom many of the passes are derived, came to Mexico as a shipwrecked passenger during the 16th century.

I always wondered about this 16th century Chinese nagual story, because according to most historical accounts, the Chinese discontinued voyages undertaken by an admiral named Zhenge (Cheng Ho) in the 15th century during the Ming era. The last year the voyages were conducted was 1433. All of those voyages only went along the Southern Asian coast to Africa and to Java. It would be more than four centuries before outward bound voyages would continue.

This contrasts with most historical references citing that Chinese coolies were brought into Mexico during the late 19th and early 20th century to work on railroads in the Yaqui territories and the hennequen plantations in the Yucatan.

If I remember correctly, it also contrasts with the accounts given by Castaneda himself who stated that his lineage began in the 18th century with the "Nagual" Sebastian, who supposedly met the death defier at that time. According to The Fire From Within, pg. 252, trade paperback edition, "And he has met every single nagual of our line since that day in 1723." So if the "Nagual" Lujan supposedly came to the New World during the 16th century, how can it be said that he was part of don Juanís lineage? In addition, if I remember correctly, it has also been said that the "Nagual" Lujan was one of the favorite "naguals" of the death defier.It doesnít add up.

-----
Re: Nagual Lujan
From: Leonard Zimmerman
Date: 11/17/99

I stand corrected. Someone has brought to my attention that according to another reference "One of the leaders of don Juan Matus's lineage was the nagual Lujan, a sailor from China whose original name was something like Lo-Ban. He came to Mexico around the turn of the nineteenth century, and stayed there for the rest of his life." (Magical Passes, p. 30-31)

This would place him within Don Juan's lineage, but I am wondering if it would place him on a Chinese ship during that period. Guess I'll have to do more research.

-----
Re: Nagual Lujan
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/27/99

I once studied tai chi from Dr. Fung, from canada. He had a wonderful book (in chinese only) that had pictures and drawings of all the masters that sailed on those ships. Apparently it was very important to advertise who you had guarding your boat, they even had their own flags to warn that a boat was guarded by so and so.

I bet if we could get a copy of that book we could figure out if there really was someone by that name. The book had hundreds of masters, and the historical info on each, plus even pictures of the stances and techniques they used.

The idea of a chinese master sailing somewhere on a chinese merchant ship is quite sound, according to what I was told all of those ships had a guard like that. It was one way of making a living as a martial artist in those days.

-----
Re: Nagual Lujan
From: Leonard Zimmerman
Date: 11/27/99

>>>The idea of a chinese master sailing somewhere on a chinese merchant ship is quite sound, according to what I was told all of those ships had a guard like that. It was one way of making a living as a martial artist in those days.>>>

According to the information I have found, most Chinese ships would not have traveled to North America until the mid 1800s. So the statement in the Wheel of Time placing the supposed "Nagual" Lujan in Mexico around 1800 seems inaccurate. I feel this way mostly because a specific year (1723) was given for the meeting between the supposed Death Defier and the supposed "Nagual" Sebastian, so there should not be such an inaccuracy in the date that Lujan washed up on Mexico's coast. Since Lewis & Clark did not reach the Pacific until around 1805, there were no major cities on the West Coast during the early 1800s for the Chinese to have had contact.

In addition, the Wheel of Time states that Lujan (or Lo-Pan) was a sailor, not a guard of a merchant ship.

However, it would be interesting to see the book that your instructor had so that the dates could at least be verified.

-----
Second death reported in bizarre cult case
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/18/99

This morning on Japanese news (ch 18 6:30 AM) a news conference was reported on in the case of the japanese guru and the death of his student.

The devotees declaired that the guru had ordered the man, who had a brain cuncushion, to be removed from the hospital for treatment by the guru. They explained that the man had not actually died, but had spontaneously transformed himself into a mummy, as part of his recovery. The guru explained that when poison is given to a patient it is normal for the internal organs to decay, thus they had left the man unattended for several months. The guru assured the media that the man was still alive when the police siezed the body and performed an autopsy.

The students had very calm and peaceful smiles on their faces as they explained that their organization, Life Space, had written 5 books on medical treatments. The guru had been a surgeon in a previous life. They told the new media that their minimum order for books was 100 copies at $10,000. They suggested that the media could make such a purchase and sell the copies for $200 and guaranteed they would be flooded with orders.

Meanwhile a second death under the guru's care was reported. It seems a woman and her brother sought advice of the guru for the brother's failing liver. The guru suggested they take a course for $40,000 and assured them it was a cheap price. The woman and man felt a special energy from the guru and decided they could trust him. After the course the man said he felt better. They left to return home by subway. The man colapsed on the way. Doctors advised he be returned to the hospital immediatly for an IV. The guru insisted that an IV was the wrong thing to do and that they should return him for treatment.

A few hours after returning to the guru's students for treatment the man stopped breathing. The woman was called to his side. The guru said that although he had stopped breathing, there was still hope. They continued treatment in order to revive him, consisting of Shakti Pat massage.

The man was later pronounced dead at a hospital.

When asked why she trusted the guru so much, the woman replied that she felt he knew her perfectly. It was not possible to question such a being. She said that inside the group the guru's orders went without question. She added that whenever she got around any of his close disciples she felt an alien energy and saw sparks dancing before her eyes.

Meanwhile, cleargreen still stands by the alien origin of the blue scout, and despite recent revelations that Carlos was on an IV drip of morphine in his last hours they continue to believe he left the world in full awareness, as don Juan did. Workshop attendees often report seeing sparks of energy when standing in front of the stage of energy trackers.

-----
Re: Second death reported in bizarre cult case
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/19/99

The japanese cult leader came from a poor family and lost his left eye trying to shoot a sparrow as a boy. His friends said he grew up to be a big liar. His announced intentions when he started were to collect 4 million dollars. He claimed to be associated with sai baba, who denied it, and just this week announced that bill gates was interested in him.

He pats people with his "shakti pats".

The japanese seem even more susceptable to weird cults than us americans. I guess it fits in with their particular social outlook.

Sustained Reaction Archive - Page 8