Sustained Reaction


Sustained Reaction Archive - Page 5

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Re: "Fry Your Mind!"--ClearGreens Response - From: Calixto - Date: 11/4/99
Re: "Fry Your Mind!"--ClearGreens Response - From: anaid - Date: 11/4/99
Re: "Fry Your Mind!"--ClearGreens Response - From: Corey Donovan - Date: 11/4/99
Re: "Fry Your Mind!"--ClearGreens Response - From: Calixto - Date: 11/5/99
Re: "Fry Your Mind!"--a FreeMind's Response - From: Dargarpon@hotmail.com - Date: 11/9/99
Re: "Fry Your Mind!"--ClearGreens Response - From: anaid - Date: 11/6/99
Re: "Fry Your Mind!"--ClearGreens Response - From: Corey Donovan - Date: 11/6/99
Re: "Fry Your Mind!"--ClearGreens Response - From: A Fool - Date: 11/5/99
Re: "Fry Your Mind!"--ClearGreens Response - From: Corey Donovan - Date: 11/5/99
Re: "Fry Your Mind!"--ClearGreens Response - From: Logan - Date: 11/5/99
Tenant - From: Tod von Oben - Date: 11/2/99
Re: Tenant - From: Leonard Zimmerman - Date: 11/3/99
Re: Critical thinking - From: anaid - Date: 11/3/99
Re: Critical thinking - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 11/4/99
Re: Critical thinking - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 11/6/99
Re: Critical thinking - From: Leonard Zimmerman - Date: 11/4/99
Re: Fradulent posts and their source - From: sven - Date: 11/6/99
Passed by - From: J. Camaney - Date: 11/6/99
Re: Passed by - From: Corey Donovan - Date: 11/6/99
Re: Passed by - From: Leonard Zimmerman - Date: 11/6/99
Carlos , Women and the Warrior's Way - From: A Fool - Date: 11/6/99
See for yourself... - From: greggabi@aol.com - Date: 11/7/99
Re: See for yourself... - From: Logan - Date: 11/7/99
Re: See for yourself... - From: Satan - Date: 11/9/99
Article 570 - From: Myrddin - Date: 11/8/99
Re: Article 570 - From: Corey Donovan - Date: 11/9/99
answer - From: - Date: 11/9/99
Re: answer - From: Satan - Date: 11/9/99
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Re: "Fry Your Mind!"--ClearGreens Response
From: Calixto
Date: 11/4/99

It probably sounds like I'm pissed when I write these things, but I'm not. I'm flaming ya for yer own good, boys and girls... :-)

Logan said:

"The more serious practitioners that are there the better the mass is supported. "

Argh. :-) That's exactly what the old bacon eater used to tell us, and he also made a regular point of telling us that WE (the Sunday Group) were the ones who were doing most of the "supporting". He hand-picked the people he wanted to be in that group, you see, and he claimed that he did so based on "seeing". He even went to the point of chopping out almost half the group at one point, and of course he claimed he was keeping only the most "serious practitioners". Oh boy, we were sure the "special" ones then...

So now you are the "special" ones, eh? But not as super special as we were --- hand-picked by the "Nagual" based on "seeing"! LOL. C'mon ... Cleargreen is even losing some of their inner-circle people.

Eidolon said: " Now the mood has changed and this is encouraging. "

Yeah, nothing is left but the genuinely clueless, and the head-in-the-sand fanatics. LOL again. You know something, even if you people COULD dream together, I wouldn't want anything to do with you. If you DID go to another world, at this point I'd probably say ... good riddance :-). Why? Maybe I don't believe you'd do anything better there than you did here. Of course, you probably won't go anywhere at all ... except to more workshops.

(guess I'm more selective about who I dream with--- the people I dream with will have *integrity*...)

Eidolon:

"Maybe one day some of the former Sunday school boys and girls will be with us again - who knows. I wonder if really every former Sunday class member agrees with Corey, Linda, Dan or David Worrel...

Logan:

"I am not entirely sure but I think there is another half of the Sunday group that do have an inkling as to what sorcery is about and are having experiences that validate their own personal understanding of the Warriors Way. The other half of the Sunday Group formed a list called Tigre."

Well, let's see ... I'm not exactly "sociable" so I don't know what they're all doing (Corey?), but even I know three other Sunday people who haven't posted here who are all largely in the skeptic camp now, and I can think of a few more who have completely vanished --- and don't forget, even Greg and Gabi were once among the "annointed". I even know an 'Electric Warrior', who wants *nothing* to do with it. Oh sure, there are a few diehards still practicing, but even the practice group of the Sunday people is defunct as far as I know (Dan?).

You know, it's really rather amazing we've been able to get this far. I mean, there's only so much we can do for you guys. We've got friggin' scripts for Carol Tiggs planning out how she's going to act in front of her own people. We've got friggin' video of the frail old man right before he died. We've got dates and documents that make lies of some of the most significant "tales of power". We've got firsthand accounts from women who were told they were the 'Electric Warrior' but were trashed when they wouldn't 'put out'. etc. etc. What the heck does it take to wake you people up? Oh well, there's more "fun" to come, so hang in there true believers...

-C.

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Re: "Fry Your Mind!"--ClearGreens Response
From: anaid
Date: 11/4/99

Calixto-- you mention four things that you think "you have" that should be reason enough for anyone in their right mind to realize that Casteneda was a fraud, right? Carol Tiggs "script", pictures or a "frail old man", documents that disprove "tales of power" and "first hand accounts" from women who were demoted because they would not put out. I'm writing this for your own good, Calixto, so maybe you can begin to see that some people might feel that they are very much in their right mind and still not see things the way that you seem to think they should.

Carol Tiggs was part of a party where many of the others practiced writing as a form of dreaming, as an act of power. ALso I think you would agree they were busy people, they didn't just seem to sit around all day wathing tv, they had stuff to DO. So why is it so odd that Carol Tiggs might want to write something down in order for Carlos or Taisha or FLorinda to see how she was going to be presenting one of her "tales of power"? Do YOU honestly believe that she wrote down "kiss and touch Renata" because she might simply forget to kiss and touch Renata at that point? I think she just wanted to document her little skit so the others could see what she had in mind -- just as they might have shared ideas for how best to present the other things they did at workshops or did in public -- come on, it's not that horrible an offense! Second you say you have pictures of a frail old man. I thought the nagual looked rather spiffy myself! He's thin but he's not convulsing on the floor or lying in his own piss. He's got a blond cutie on his arm and he seems to be doing okay to me. Next you have your documents. You have a lot applications for marriage LICENSES and they have a lot of different names on them. Do you know for a fact that these marriages were then performed? ANyone can go get a liscense and then not use it. Also, if they were truly concerned about wanting some LEGAL manifestation of a commitment in the form of marriage, why would they not answer the questions on the liscensee "truthfully" -- wouldn't the fact that they wrote down dates of birth, info on number of previous marriages, where people were born etc. that was not backed up by the other documents -- in other words, one could say they "lied" on the liscense so wouldn't that negate any legal purpose that would be served by trying to get a liscense to "legally" marry?? It's not exactly cut and dried IMHO. And last of all, did you say there is some first hand info from some of the women that Carlos wanted to have sex with and then got dumped when they would not go to bed with him? Could you please provide me with the link to that? Thanks for your time! 'naid.

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Re: "Fry Your Mind!"--ClearGreens Response
From: Corey Donovan
Date: 11/4/99

Anaid demands:>>>> Calixto-- you mention four things that you think "you have" that should be reason enough for anyone in their right mind to realize that Casteneda was a fraud, right? Carol Tiggs "script", pictures or a "frail old man", documents that disprove "tales of power" and "first hand accounts" from women who were demoted because they would not put out. I'm writing this for your own good, Calixto, so maybe you can begin to see that some people might feel that they are very much in their right mind and still not see things the way that you seem to think they should. Carol Tiggs was part of a party where many of the others practiced writing as a form of dreaming, as an act of power. ALso I think you would agree they were busy people, they didn't just seem to sit around all day wathing tv, they had stuff to DO. So why is it so odd that Carol Tiggs might want to write something down in order for Carlos or Taisha or FLorinda to see how she was going to be presenting one of her "tales of power"? Do YOU honestly believe that she wrote down "kiss and touch Renata" because she might simply forget to kiss and touch Renata at that point? I think she just wanted to document her little skit so the others could see what she had in mind -- just as they might have shared ideas for how best to present the other things they did at workshops or did in public -- come on, it's not that horrible an offense!<<<<

You know, if you would demand one-tenth of the "proof" from the staff on payroll (and Castaneda estate distributions) at Cleargreen and Co. that you do from the little band of unpaid volunteers here, you might see that there is virtually nothing holding up Cleargreen's little charade at this point.

At any rate, as to Carol's little performance, this was far from an isolated instance for the great and powerful "Nagual Woman/Death Defier." Florinda intimated to me that nearly every performance by Carol was heavily scripted (and, if you haven't gotten a clue yet, it was Castaneda scripting those performances). Of course, you're probably not going to believe me--you'd rather believe anything that a bunch of people with a vested financial interest in maintaining the workshops say than people with nothing to gain from telling you the truth. But that's your problem. Maybe you can reflect, however, on the simple fact that Carol has stopped making any public appearances since Castaneda's death (except, of course, for a brief 15 minutes at the Aug. '98 intensive workshop, where she claimed to be speaking for the other two 'Witches' as well -- and was still performing from a script).

>>>>Second you say you have pictures of a frail old man. I thought the nagual looked rather spiffy myself! He's thin but he's not convulsing on the floor or lying in his own piss. He's got a blond cutie on his arm and he seems to be doing okay to me.<<<<

Well, I've seen the video itself a couple times, from which the currently available pictures are very grainy video captures. For someone who had seen Castaneda a lot in the year preceding his death, to see him this thin and feeble, with dark discoloration of his skin, and needing to be helped into the house by Florinda is pretty shocking, especially when one recalls how agile and fit he always claimed to be. If this is how one gets oneself in condition for the "great leap," I think I'll look into other fitness regimens.

>>>>Next you have your documents. You have a lot applications for marriage LICENSES and they have a lot of different names on them. Do you know for a fact that these marriages were then performed? ANyone can go get a liscense and then not use it. Also, if they were truly concerned about wanting some LEGAL manifestation of a commitment in the form of marriage, why would they not answer the questions on the liscensee "truthfully" -- wouldn't the fact that they wrote down dates of birth, info on number of previous marriages, where people were born etc. that was not backed up by the other documents -- in other words, one could say they "lied" on the liscense so wouldn't that negate any legal purpose that would be served by trying to get a liscense to "legally" marry?? It's not exactly cut and dried IMHO.<<<<

Yes, the marrying deal is hardly "cut and dried," since we still don't know why they went to this trouble at all, especially when Castaneda used to talk so savagely about marriage and "coupling" at workshops and Sunday sessions. Perhaps the simplest and most likely explanation was that marrying Castaneda was another one of the favors he bestowed to reward and control his group, along with many others (like special titles, being written into the books, being featured at workshops, where one was seated in the special Cleargreen rows, etc.) I have heard of others whom he talked to about marrying on a regular basis (apparently to show them that they were more important than the rest of the women in his life), but whom he didn't get around to marrying. At any rate, you can rest assured that those marriages did take place. I simply put the license applications up because they had the parties' signatures and a little more information than the final marriage certificates, which I also have.

>>>>And last of all, did you say there is some first hand info from some of the women that Carlos wanted to have sex with and then got dumped when they would not go to bed with him? Could you please provide me with the link to that? Thanks for your time! 'naid.<<<<

It may well be that within the next year or two, one or more of these women will be willing to say something publicly about their experience. For right now, however, the ones I have talked to are not willing to speak to anyone other than people they already know and trust. When you keep in mind that others that Castaneda had had sex with and later dumped from his group were asked to sign non-disclosure agreements in return for a payment, and that Castaneda's lawyer sent letters to at least one woman threatening her with legal action if she did not stop speaking about her relationship with Castaneda, you might understand why these women are even more reluctant than most of us to talk about the intimate details of their private lives.

For fun, however, you might call up the women at Cleargreen and insist that they tell you about having Castaneda "fix their energy bars."

--Corey

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Re: "Fry Your Mind!"--ClearGreens Response
From: Calixto
Date: 11/5/99

Anaid said:

"...in the photo *I* saw *here*, the nagual looked kind spiffy in his little beret and the blond on his arm looked like she was smiling to me...looked like a pleasant day...to me anyway."

Corey responded to your points --- but above is SUCH a great example of how you TB's delude yourselves that a bit more comment is warranted. How you could see what you see in that picture is beyond comprehension, because the full scene is that they had him bundled up in a blanket in the back seat of a car. He takes a rather long time to get out of the car, and then, when it looks like he might not make the short distance to the gate, Florinda comes rushing out in a bathrobe, with what looks like a very concerned look on her face, and helps him walk, rather slowly, the few steps to the house. If you don't think he looks "frail" in that picture, and if you don't think his skin is obviously discolored, then ... perhaps you just weren't very familiar with what he looked like. Thanks for the great example, though. Having a pleasant little stroll, indeed. Oh my...

-C.

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Re: "Fry Your Mind!"--a FreeMind's Response
From: Dargarpon@hotmail.com
Date: 11/9/99

Now, I dont know if this is going to be allowed through. I had some problems being allowed access to SA mailing list, but I cant go into that old stick again. Up to you Corey, but i have a voice if you dont mind me expressing it here;

Anaid, you seem to have your head screwed on right. And seeing you being dunked in the TB bin is weird to watch. But for me to say that is going to put me on one side of the fence or the other. So let me be clear if I may - I most definitely disagree with what is going on in the minds of people who are trying to destroy the castle of Castaneda. My reasons are because I am living in the same style and degree of life that he did, not meaning to suggest i am a nagual or anything like the man but regardless of what people end up getting on him and his purported hoax, there is a big truth out there that exists and you CAN deny it, but it is like denying the existance of a road, all you can really do is block it off to others by becoming like thought Police. Having said that, I actually think it is a good thing. This is necessary to allow people to build a sturdy understanding of a very elusive and irrational concept that has been presented. Eventually this is going to be understood by humankind. maybe many years from now, maybe not. I do sincerely mean it when i say keep up the good work, all those that are tearing through the scraps of the jigsaw, successfully proving it to be a lie. but when all is said and done, there are people I know that know nothing of Castaneda except through me and already they are forming perception and awareness on a level that makes no sense to me - Simply because they are not aware of you, me and Castaneda and yet they are progressing in leaps and bounds. So i hear what is being said on this site and yet i cant deny that the very same lie is occuring, of itself, without any prior knowledge of the Castaneda lineage. So how do i explain that? So how do you tell them it is a hoax, a lie. They are way ahead of any of us because they know directly. Unhindered by this pointless question that has become an obsession for those that are of the old school, i.e. you and me.

I cant say it any clearer. Free your mind and your ass will follow. it is a lie. but it doesnt actually matter. Those that come after this time already know that the road is open.

and like i said before, the ball is in your court Corey.

Dargarpon.

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Re: "Fry Your Mind!"--ClearGreens Response
From: anaid
Date: 11/6/99

actually i think *your* comment is pretty strange too. especially on a site that is dealing a lot with issues of perception-- *perception* is exactly the point i was trying to make...how each of us perceives differently. but for you to say i am delusional for looking at a picture you yourself say is grainy and seeing the nagual nicely dressed with a cute woman on his arm on what looks to be a clear day out...there was no caption saying 'castaneda almost passed out two minutes ago and florinda came running out..it was just a photo. how do you expect me to see what happened in a film that you didn't show...how could i see details about his skin in a video still, yet you think i'm delusional for not being able to perceive things that were not shown...i don't get it...and before my keyboard eats this, what is a tb...thanks. anaid.

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Re: "Fry Your Mind!"--ClearGreens Response
From: Corey Donovan
Date: 11/6/99

Anaid responded >>>>actually i think *your* comment is pretty strange too. especially on a site that is dealing a lot with issues of perception-- *perception* is exactly the point i was trying to make...how each of us perceives differently. but for you to say i am delusional for looking at a picture you yourself say is grainy and seeing the nagual nicely dressed with a cute woman on his arm on what looks to be a clear day out...there was no caption saying 'castaneda almost passed out two minutes ago and florinda came running out..it was just a photo. how do you expect me to see what happened in a film that you didn't show...how could i see details about his skin in a video still, yet you think i'm delusional for not being able to perceive things that were not shown...i don't get it...and before my keyboard eats this, what is a tb...thanks. anaid.<<<<<

It does seem unfair for anyone to call someone "delusional" for misreading a picture, especially one as small and grainy (and, depending on screen resolution and the like, subject to great variations in color, shade and lighting). Nonetheless, it is amusing that you saw such a sunny, pleasant scene in a piece of something that a number of us have watched and been terribly saddened and moved to tears by.

As far as the initials "TB," that was a cute little label that, I believe, Calixto coined some months back for those on SA who seemed to be working very hard either to ignore or totally distort the "facts" available in order to preserve their "belief." It stands for "true believer." Although the label was in vogue over on SA and elsewhere for a couple months, a couple people suggested that it sounded pejorative and minimizing. Lawton suggested "pro-belief" as a possible alternative label, and a few of us have used that. I think we're all open to suggestions on what to call this phenomenon of those who have been following this material for years, but who are either (1) going out of their way to avoid looking at the material on this site (which one would normally think that anyone with a lifelong interest in Castaneda's work would at least be curious about); (2) defaming those who first brought this material forward, as though we are somehow more culpable than those who actually did the things that are described in the chronologies or elsewhere; (3) distorting the facts and selectively quoting from the books to make it seem that Cleargreen's recent, belated "explanation" makes perfect sense; and/or (4) [the last refuge] positing that Castaneda "set some of those former Sunday people up" to advance this material for some fabulous "stalking" reason--i.e., to escape the glare of public attention or to ensure that only the most serious practitioners remain in the workshops and receive the blessed future teachings of Cleargreen.

If you can suggest a less pejorative label for this fairly bizarre phenomenon, please let us know.

Oh, and BTW, I had the pleasure of talking with someone yesterday who knew Carol (then Elizabeth Austin, of course) and her soon-to-be husband, Marc LeBel, throughout acupuncture school, and who is still in touch with Marc. She was unaware of Carol and Castaneda's claim that Carol was gone for 10 years in the Second Attention (although she is pretty familiar with Castaneda's material, and read all the books). At any rate, she laughed her head off when I informed her that Cleargreen was now saying that Carol merely "projected herself back here" on occasion while she was "physically gone" for those 10 years. It seems that this woman (like Carol's other classmates) saw her on virtually a daily basis.

Hmmm, maybe she just had a mobile hologram transmitter that allowed her to return, like the Emergency Medical Hologram guy on Star Trek Voyager. ;-)

--Corey

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Re: "Fry Your Mind!"--ClearGreens Response
From: A Fool
Date: 11/5/99

I was there for Carol's talk in August 98 and there was no script and it wasn't 15 minutes, either. I wish there was a script, I wanted to hear what she was saying so I didn't take notes. She acknowledged the things Carlos did not accomplish in his life while giving every person in the room the responsibility to pursue living like a warrior, or not.

It appears that Carlos had relationships with many, many women, none of whom have complained about him publically so far. In fact I have seen several accounts by non-Cleargreen women describing a paternal, mentoring relationship.I'm sure they weren't all like that. I'm sure there's a few out there who would like to lash out a bit. But, the guy seems to have had a pretty good batting average. I'd consider myself lucky to have had so many people say good things about me.

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Re: "Fry Your Mind!"--ClearGreens Response
From: Corey Donovan
Date: 11/5/99

A Fool (self description) wrote:>>>>I was there for Carol's talk in August 98 and there was no script and it wasn't 15 minutes, either. I wish there was a script, I wanted to hear what she was saying so I didn't take notes. She acknowledged the things Carlos did not accomplish in his life while giving every person in the room the responsibility to pursue living like a warrior, or not.<<<<

Well, I was there too, and she spoke a mere 15-20 minutes, max. (Maybe it seemed longer to you, but I was checking the clock, because I wanted to know how long she could sustain a post-Castaneda performance.) You didn't see the "script" because she memorized the performance. She is very good at such memorization BTW. I saw her in four per- formances of "Sorcery Theater," including one at the Westwood compound where she was in over half of the skits. She's very capable of memorizing and performing what is written for her. (Castaneda wrote the vast majority of those theater skits too, BTW, although they always claimed they were written by others in the group.)

Fool also claimed:>>>>It appears that Carlos had relationships with many, many women, none of whom have complained about him publically so far. In fact I have seen several accounts by non-Cleargreen women describing a paternal, mentoring relationship.<<<<

I'm not questioning your assertion, but I am interested in knowing where you read those statements by "non-Cleargreen women." I have read material from virtually every Castaneda-related forum over the past five years (and started a few), and I'm trying to figure out exactly what material you might be referring to.

--Corey

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Re: "Fry Your Mind!"--ClearGreens Response
From: Logan
Date: 11/5/99

Calixto Writes: You know, it's really rather amazing we've been able to get this far. I mean, there's only so much we can do for you guys. We've got friggin' scripts for Carol Tiggs planning out how she's going to act in front of her own people. We've got friggin' video of the frail old man right before he died. We've got dates and documents that make lies of some of the most significant "tales of power". We've got firsthand accounts from women who were told they were the 'Electric Warrior' but were trashed when they wouldn't 'put out'. etc. etc. What the heck does it take to wake you people up? Oh well, there's more "fun" to come, so hang in there true believers... ::

Your right Calixto, the whole thing is a big mess and the shitmill just keeps getting bigger! We could be debating the validity of who had sex with who till the end of time and still not know what really happened. Anyone can rearrange the facts to suit thier purposes.

If we clear away all the crap what is left? A couple of basic concepts like -You are a Perciever & You are going to die one day. We don't need Carlos and Crew to examine and explore these concepts! What does it mean to be a perciever? What does it mean to be without perception?

Lets clear away the crap and get down to critically thinking about some concepts that do have validity, that do appeal to reasoning, that are completely logical. Lets start asking questions there.

Logan

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Tenant
From: Tod von Oben
Date: 11/2/99

From "Song of the Deer" by Thunder Strikes with Jan Orsi To more fully understand the origins of this lineage and the other seven of the Eight Great Powers on the planet, we will digress into an ancient story of the Twelve Worlds, which begins in the distant past, out among the stars. This wondrous story has been passed down from the Zero Chiefs, who are direct descendants of the early Star Nation Beings we call Sskwanasie, the ancient ancestors from the stars. It has been kept alive from teacher to student over eons, and has been validated by the Zero Chiefs and other highly enlightened Elders and sorcerers, powerful magicians who have dreamed themselves across into other worlds. Carlos Castaneda's stories speak of some of these experiences. Perhaps the greatest sorcerer/traveler of the Twisted Hairs tradition of Turtle Island is known as the Tenant. He has traveled to other worlds and returned, and the knowledge he has brought back has increased the potential for all of us to evolve into those spaces, thus expanding the Great Spirit's experience of itself and contributing to its ongoing and continuos evolution

Achtung! Chech your six!

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Re: Tenant
From: Linda Zoontjens
Date: 11/3/99

Tod von Oben wrote:

<<<<SNIP> for brevity

Perhaps the greatest sorcerer/traveler of the Twisted Hairs tradition of Turtle Island is known as the Tenant.>>>

You know honey, it may be useful if you post website addresses which have more information about Harley Swiftdeer.

Those would include:
One which would have a direct reference to Carlos Castaneda:
http://www.context.org/ICLIB/IC16/Reagan.htm

One which would have a reference to Harley Swiftdeerís gun club:
http://www.amug.org/~gunnie/gunclub.htm

One which gives a reference to the Twisted Hair Society
http://www.dtmms.org/lineage.htm

And last, but not least, a couple which gives one of his pupils, Annie Sprinkle, well known prostitute, porn star, writer and performance artist who cites Harley as her "formal sex teacher".
http://www.dreamscape.com/elusis/thesis/appendix1.html

This one has an interview with Annie in which she says that Harley says the Cherokees would do fire breath orgasm in their ceremonies and it was an important part of sex eduation and healing. I suggest that you call the Cherokee Nation and ask them about this.

http://www.heck.com/annie/gallery/orgasms.html

You know, now that I think about it, perhaps Annie was Castanedaís model for "Dona Soledad".

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Re: Critical thinking
From: anaid
Date: 11/3/99

In one of his posts dan accused cleargreen of "abuse of syntatical commands" in order to transform the everyday reality of the world. I thought that warriors strived to transform the reality of the everyday world in any way possible --well, as long as it was in a sober willful way. More than that, I think dan actually believes that castaneda et al were abusing their seeing, for example when they talk about a warm ooze that comes from being in the midst of gossip and such stuff, dan felt that that image came from true seeing, but then cleargreen used it to keep people from getting in the midst of some of the kind of gossipy stuff posted on SA. Then, when cleargreen responded to the questions about carol tiggs by mentioning that it is possible for sorcerers to be in two places at once, someone from SA mentioned that don Juan himself said that warriors had to be impeccable in their rationality. But that's not what I heard don Juan say. I thought he said that when you are dealing with the tonal, you should be a perfect tonal, a paragon of reason and rationality, no time for irrational crap. BUT when you are dealing with the nagual, just the opposite should be true -- no time for rational crap. And being in two places at once is in the realm of the nagual. So are many of the other issues that SA is asking for explanations of. Did you notice that many of the sorcerer's have more than one name, and they *have* spoken about how in order to practice stalking,they totally BECOME another person. I don't want to fall into the trap of trying to explain things that are in the realm of the nagual again. reason and "critical thinking" have a place in the warriors way, but not when you are dealing with the nagual. I think that *that* is where "having to believe" comes into play.

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Re: Critical thinking
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/4/99

What you are saying is true. It could very well be that the cleargreen people are aware of the fact that sorcery is fabrication and are even learning to do it themselves, as often as needed. That's not good, because it might well evolve a magic free cult of bullshit, making up things for as long as they can, with older members leaving and new ones taking over the workshop circuit. It could go on for 100 years.

But if there's never any real magic, what kind of a way of life is that? A mental high just isn't that rare or difficult to produce, I used to think it was, but now I know it's a dime a dozen. You can learn to see little lights flickering, huge fields of energy, to go in to dreaming at the drop of a hat, to make the world get fuzzy and light filled, etc. There's no magic there.

Seeing doesn't provide any justification for living a life of lies and hurtfullness. You can learn seeing from many sources, it's almost as common as meatloaf. You can buy ready made meatloaf in most markets, and you don't need to concoct a philisophy to reheat it. Seeing is like that, except that maybe there's only 1 out of 1000 markets to buy it at.

I guess the heart of all this suffering is the image of the fatherly and wise don Juan, people still belive in him, thus it doesn't matter how ugly Carlos and the witches were, or how much they screwed up cleargreen's lives.

I don't know what it's going to take to prove there wasn't a don Juan, but I do believe it will happen eventually. Probably, one of the witches will go nuts, feel guilty, and come back to make up for what they've done. Some of them have horrible personal histories, concerning the things they did after they got involved with Carlos. That's going to hit home some day.

I can see you're sincere, your thinking is really clear, and free of the trace of aggression and hostility characteristic of other posters here. I really appreciate it. I guess the rest of us are just too competitive to post like that

-----
Re: Critical thinking
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/6/99

>But I think you are implying that sorcery is just making up any old thing as you go along like lies and storys that have the intent of manipulating people...

Isn't that exactly what Carol Tigg's chronology shows? Carlos and her made up all kinds of stuff to manipulate people by making her look magical and powerful. How much clearer could that be?

>But it all comes down to the INTENT.

That's the point. Carlos' intent was to gather people to amuse him and have sex with. You can seperate the sex from the sorcerery, if you do you aren't following his own teachings. Didn't you ever hear the story about professor Garfinkle, whom Carlos admired until don Juan told him to examine his personal life and Carlos found him concerned about women. We can't remove Carlos' behavior from the sorcery, that was a #1 point of his. And his behavior didn't match up to his warrior's philisophy.

> Sorcerers are not --wait actually I shouldn't say sorcerers, but WARRIORS are not going to try to manipulate people places or things in order to increase there own self importance.

So why did Carlos and Carol Tiggs claim over and over that she had a PHD when she didn't, why did they claim she returned from a 10 year absense in infinity when she didn't, why did she tell people in Tula in her speach that she used to be a medical doctor? These lies don't increase her self-importance? If not, what does?

>Why would a warrior care or bother with trying to wreck some anonymous persons life??

In Carlos' case, he had a history, as told by his old friends, of lying to manipulate people, especially women. He already had a history of ditching his family, wife, child before he met don Juan. In other words, Carlos invented a philisophy where his flaws were attributes, and attracted women in such a way that he could control all of their lives. There was no sorcery undertaking, just a big lie that Carlos got caught up in. A lie that looks true to sad people who want to escape, and who don't realize that the mind is a flakey thing which gets high and has weird experiences just on belief alone.

> If a warrior is not in superb condition infinity won't touch them with a ten foot poll.

Who of Carlos and the witches was in superb condition? Sounds like cult babble. Carlos had very poor health, Carol Tiggs has worse health than anyone else I know personally. You heard that inside cleargreen people were always flocking to Howard Lee to get healed. It's just a bunch of sick exercise junkies who are generally young and thin, thus giving the performance and appearance that appeals to society in general. Examine them ruthlessly and tell me how you find them healthy.

Replica Watches  Replica Watches

>I don't understand what you think Carlos or the witches DID to people.

Carlos took the witches away from their families and husbands. We have mothers dying of heartbreak in their histories. It turns out some of them were taken away at very young ages, 18 or 19, to become Carlos' sex partner and fellow cult member. Later he repeated the same over and over again, calling women up all the way across the country, wooing them by telling them they were a new kind of special warrior he needed, convincing them to dump their families and move out to be with him. But not even half were kept, the rest discarded.

There's worse situations than that, but they would be really cruel to discuss in open like this. There are some pretty fucked up people in cleargreen, Carlos taking advantage of them is really horrendous.

Can't you see what is right in front of you? There's no sorcery here, it's a sham. But sorcery is genuine, and the human mind can learn to do that kind of stuff if you want it to.

>From what I read in your own info, some of the folks that went to the Sunday sessions were upset that Carlos DIDN't have sex with them because all of you seemed desperate for his attention.

Actually, I don't know of any case of that at all, I'm not sure who you're referring to. People wanted special attention, nobody knew it meant sex. About 4 women knew he was flirting with them, but no one knew it was a pattern, no one would have dared to even think that because we were all brainwashed.

>..well I shouldn't say all of course, I didn't know you -- but certainly MANY wanted the attention of Carlos don't you think?

Exactly. Carlos preyed on making people feel special, he got them addicted to it and kept them under control using that feeling. And the irony is that his philisophy was claimed to be a way out of the very thing that all of cleargreen is hooked on to this day. It's almost as if Carlos created a philisophy where you do the opposite of everything you claim, and don't even notice it (unless you manage to get some distance).

>Where is the "taking responsibility" here??

That's why were still here. Some of us are taking responsibility for promoting this at one time, and trying to bring it down, or at least pull as many into the truth as we can. I guess this will never go away, people just don't really care if it's true or not. They just want to pretend because it gives them a feeling their lives aren't junk.

>How many men in the world do you know of that DON'T do *exactly* that whenever possible?

Any man with integrity. There are some of those out there. Carlos claimed to be one. I certainly wouldn't abuse women that way.

>Are you all so mad that he didn't burn?

I guess you could assume it was just a coincidence, but then you'd also have to explain the fact that there was never any magic in his classes. He never did any of the things that don Juan could do, none of the witches did either. Don't listen to the new cleargreen stories, they're starting to make up stories about the past. We all used to know these people, and we saw Carlos in action hundreds of times.

It was a big show, using people's emotions to hop them up and get them high while flattering them and puffing up their egos until they believed they were on to some greater purpose. Just another ugly cult.

>Why do you seem to want to think of him in such an awful light???

Just read the info on Corey's web page. It should be obvious. If not, there's a lot more coming over time.

-----
Re: Critical thinking
From: Leonard Zimmerman
Date: 11/4/99

It has always been my hope that Taisha would come forward with what she knows. I have the fervent belief in my heart that this will be the case ever since I had an experience of "inner silence" with her at the Long Beach seminar. I feel that Carlos' soul may be seeking solace and that one of the ways that this may be happening is the information which has been brought to light by Sustained Action.

It would help me tremendously if she would do so.

-----
Re: Fradulent posts and their source
From: sven
Date: 11/6/99

ok. that would be the signal. just before this ....gap..closes I would just like to say thank you for all the work that went into this site and for all the insight this forum has provided. Some of us are not from california and sometimes it seems like this is all so far away. The workshops have helped bring it to the outlaying districts in a practical way with the passes but this forum has allowed the voice of those intimately connected and involved to be heard. I always thought I was missing something by not being there. Now your guided tour into stories and perceptions shared has brought it forward in a way that would not have been captured, that would have been missed with a movie.

So many questions have been answered and gaps filled in. So many views have been expressed and so much information shared. Thats what I want to thank this forum for.

The effects of the teachings are hitting us with a rippling effect. I always see you folks as so close to it that you cant actually get the longer view. Immersion has its difficulties.

We are forming a jagged circle. At the same time we are all strung out along this road to ixtlan.

Some of us have read the books and changed our lives already, some are just about to change, some are thinking about it. Some just heard he died and are seeking information, some have been there and are returning, we the delusioned march towards the battle, as they the disillusioned march away, a thousand tales,

And somewhere, tomorrow, someone is going to pick up one of the books for the first time,

Its too late to find out its not all true. lol. It just doesn't matter any more. Mass does not require proximity or consensus.

but the dance here.....magnificent.

-----
Passed by
From: J. Camaney
Date: 11/6/99

Just curious, but why was the following not responded to by the "fantastic 4":

"Well, one of the things that I gather from your responses (Corey, Dan, and Linda) is that you haven't done your homework. Let me explain. One of the main things that is cited as reason to be contentious of Castaneda is the sexual goings-on. Yeah, yeah, I know, you came of age in the heyday of the sexual revolution. That doesn't mean anything. You still demonstrate that you know nothing of the esoteric sexuality of the "indigenas". If you did, the type of behaviour you saw in Castaneda's group wouldn't have been as shocking. That's why I asked if you were familiar with the Chuluaqui Quodoushka teachings.

It's funny that you provide links to Annie Sprinkle and give some background on her. I don't know if this was to further cast doubts on Swift's credibility by linking him to a "whore", or what (there's another ex-porn star that was a student of Swift, her name was Hyapatia Lee). It's great you found the instructions of the fire breath, go ahead and try it, it'll knock your socks off!

Now, in the Quodoushka teachings you learn that there are four "levels" of an orgasm, depending on the amount of energy created (by yourself or with a partner). In the higher levels, the orgasmic energy created is capable of moving your assemblage point. Basically, you dream with that energy. Remember don Juan telling Carlos that sexual energy is used for dreaming? Well...

Also, some healing ceremonies involve sex between the patient and the healer/shaman (or sometimes just the energy created with the fire breath). So all this talk about Castaneda enticing women with the line about the "energy bar" needing to be fixed could take a different meaning when viewed in this light. I'm curious, did he have sex only with beautiful, vuluptuous women, or with "all types"?

Anyway, you should investigate this further if indeed you are looking for the "bigger picture".

(Which reminds me, Carlos used to tell us of the sexual prowess of "don Juan". In particular, I remember him mentioning that he could ejaculate 15 times in a row!)

On to another puzzling item. Do you all know what a "heyoehkah" is? And I don't mean that you heard about it or read something about it. I mean REALLY know. If you don't then find out. If you do, how can you complain about Carlos being contradictory, inconsistent, irreverent? By golly, he told you he was a heyoehkah in one of his first books (when he writes about talking with a coyote). Ha ha ha. Are you people really that gullible!? Don't you know that among "sorcerers" the ability to weave tales is highly prized? Specially in Mexico.

So the moral of the story is DO YOUR HOMEWORK kids.

Oh, before I forget, Linda, "I suggest that you call the Cherokee Nation and ask them about this." I doubt you'll get any info from "official" spokespeople. They'll probably tell you it's pagan horseshit. I suggest somehow getting info from the secret societies, if you can.

One other thing. For those that have done their preliminaries that story of Carol at the church and the activities with the Tenant only confirm that they know something (it wasn't just invented). Specially that last Nahuatl invocation (do you know what it means? Find out. That stuff is not "common knowledge").

I'll leave you with this:

Makochi pitenzin Mano koxteka no pitelontzin Mano koxteka no xocoyotzin Makochi kochi, pitenzin..."

Just wondering, maybe you missed it. Seems intriguing.

Regards,

// J. Camaney \\

-----
Re: Passed by
From: Corey Donovan
Date: 11/6/99

J. Cameney repeated a previous post by Kevin Peterson:>>>>Just curious, but why was the following not responded to by the "fantastic 4": "Well, one of the things that I gather from your responses (Corey, Dan, and Linda) is that you haven't done your homework. Let me explain. One of the main things that is cited as reason to be contentious of Castaneda is the sexual goings-on. Yeah, yeah, I know, you came of age in the heyday of the sexual revolution. That doesn't mean anything. You still demonstrate that you know nothing of the esoteric sexuality of the "indigenas". If you did, the type of behaviour you saw in Castaneda's group wouldn't have been as shocking. That's why I asked if you were familiar with the Chuluaqui Quodoushka teachings. <<<<

No, I'm not particularly well versed in either traditional Native American nor "plastic Indian" lore. Please enlighten us as to why you think this particular set of teachings you refer to are relevant--and keep in mind that one of Castaneda's ongoing "riffs" was to make fun of people who venerated Native American traditions. He didn't claim to have anything to do with Native American traditions himself.

>>>>Now, in the Quodoushka teachings you learn that there are four "levels" of an orgasm, depending on the amount of energy created (by yourself or with a partner). In the higher levels, the orgasmic energy created is capable of moving your assemblage point. Basically, you dream with that energy. Remember don Juan telling Carlos that sexual energy is used for dreaming? Well... Also, some healing ceremonies involve sex between the patient and the healer/shaman (or sometimes just the energy created with the fire breath). So all this talk about Castaneda enticing women with the line about the "energy bar" needing to be fixed could take a different meaning when viewed in this light. I'm curious, did he have sex only with beautiful, vuluptuous women, or with "all types"? Anyway, you should investigate this further if indeed you are looking for the "bigger picture". <<<<

Not "all types," but a variety of fairly attractive types. So exactly how ancient is this "teaching" you are referring to? This sounds like the sort of thing Harley Swift Deer (the predominantly Irish-American guru who claimed to know a lot of sex magic) is known for. And you do know that Reni and Kylie are rumored to have been involved with him pre-Castaneda don't you?

>>>>(Which reminds me, Carlos used to tell us of the sexual prowess of "don Juan". In particular, I remember him mentioning that he could ejaculate 15 times in a row!) <<<<<

Citation please!! I don't remember this bit of apocrypha, but I do remember him saying a number of times that don Juan was celibate and had not had an erection since 1936 or some such date. (Florinda, on the other hand, let on at a couple of earlier workshops that "don Juan" was sexually active.) At any rate, since we're probably talking about a fictional character here, why couldn't he have 15 ejaculations in a row (even though his creator, never said any such thing, to my knowledge).

>>>>On to another puzzling item. Do you all know what a "heyoehkah" is? And I don't mean that you heard about it or read something about it. I mean REALLY know. If you don't then find out. If you do, how can you complain about Carlos being contradictory, inconsistent, irreverent? By golly, he told you he was a heyoehkah in one of his first books (when he writes about talking with a coyote). Ha ha ha. Are you people really that gullible!? Don't you know that among "sorcerers" the ability to weave tales is highly prized? Specially in Mexico. <<<<

Yes, this one a number of us do know about. Why don't you check out the book on Trickster myths at the bookstore, for example. And he said that he was a "coyote" at the same time as he claimed, all the way until his death, that he "invented nothing." Of course, he also told the people who worked with him in the last few years of his life to "burn the books, just listen to me now." So who's the most gullible, Senor? Possiblamente tu eres?

>>>>So the moral of the story is DO YOUR HOMEWORK kids.<<<<

Likewise. And get us the cite on don Juan's 15 ejaculations while you're at it.

>>>>>One other thing. For those that have done their preliminaries that story of Carol at the church and the activities with the Tenant only confirm that they know something (it wasn't just invented). Specially that last Nahuatl invocation (do you know what it means? Find out. That stuff is not "common knowledge"). <<<<

Care to actually enlighten anyone as to how the story of Carol at the Church confirms "they know something"? Carol did take courses in Nahuatal at UCLA, and the bogus phrases at the end of her prepared speech can be put together from a Nahuatal dictionary. Are you saying you've heard or read these phrases somewhere before? Are you just a big "puke" who begs to be asked, but has nothing really to give?

>>>>I'll leave you with this: Makochi pitenzin Mano koxteka no pitelontzin Mano koxteka no xocoyotzin Makochi kochi, pitenzin..." <<<<<

Shalom to you too.

--Corey

-----
Re: Passed by
From: Leonard Zimmerman
Date: 11/6/99

Dear Mr. Cameney,

Iím not really interested in esoteric sexuality of "indigenas", the four levels of orgasms, Chuluaqui Quodoushka teachings, etc. etc. etc.I think Iíve had enough guru indoctrination to last me well into the next century. Donít go getting incontinent over the link I made to Annie Sprinkle either. She is a bit over the top for my taste, but at least she is honest. Earlier, I had written more about positive things she has done, but this list is not about porn stars.The reason I made the link are twofold. One is my feeling is that it reinforces my idea that Harley Swiftdeer is mostly about sex and that he couches it in Native American beliefs in order to attract followers. Originally, I did not think that Castaneda was about sex until I heard more from those who were closer to the people surrounding him. These revelations were shocking to me, not that he had sex, but that he was such a guru about it. If I had known this before I attended the workshop/seminars, I would not have bothered going. The other reason I made the link is that I think that Castaneda may have based the character Dona Soledad on Annie.

If one would call the Cherokee Nation, Iím sure that they would not only tell you that the Chuluaqui Quodoushka teachings are pagan bullshit, but they have more important issues to attend to rather than worrying about orgasms. Most Indian tribes are more concerned about issues such as the astronomical unemployment rate, the grinding poverty, the 25% of Native American women who have been involuntarily sterilized at U.S. government hospitals, the prevention of the U.S. government from using their children as guinea pigs to test vaccines, the birth defects caused by uranium mining done on Indian land, etc., etc., etc.,Where does Mr. Swiftdeer stand on these issues? Why, of all the quality of life issues that Native people have to deal with, does he choose sexuality as such an important issue to emphasize in his teachings?

It also seems to me after briefly reviewing webpages concerning Mr. Swiftdeer, that he may be dependent upon some of the concepts brought to light by Mr. Castaneda. There is also the claim that Two Bears was the character upon which Castaneda based don Genaro. So what I would like to know is what came first, the chicken or the egg?

In addition, if Reni and Kylie were both proteges of Harley Swiftdeer, how much of what they learned did they bring into Cleargreen?

I donít really expect that you will answer any of these questions. Will you?

Leonard

Oh and why does someone well versed in secret teachings need handguns?

-----
Carlos , Women and the Warrior's Way
From: A Fool
Date: 11/6/99

In an earlier post (Re: "Fry your mind") Daniel, I believe, the real Daniel, asked me for examples of non-cleargreen women who reported positive, mentoring relationships with Carlos. Celeste Fremen's article in Warrior's Notes (July-December)is one example. Barbara Meyerhoff's comments in Randy Stark's article in SA is another.

It's worth noting that these examples and others I would cite are from well before the Sunday group time. The belief has been shared in this forum that Carlos would have liked to have set up a something akin to the Sunday group many years ago but was unsuccessful. I disagree. What seems more likely is that Carlos became increasingly frustrated over time with his inability to create a warrior's group and continue a lineage. He came to realize that he simply wasn't the Nagual he wanted to be. Note that I'm suspending for the moment whether in a tonal kind of fashion whether what he described was "real", or actually happened. I'm referring to the lack of power he was unable to sustain on his own. He appears to have been a better apprentice than leader. Whatever direction he personally received seems to have been missing at least from the point of the workshops.

My guess is that the abusive behavior so darkly referred to in this site (to both men and women)came out of frustration. He wanted to take us all to the unknown with him. But at the same time he was finally achieving some success helping others create their own energy his body was betraying him, he was getting old, but not in the way he wanted.

We all want to believe that our touch, our spirit, is somehow magical with the people we are close to. For Carlos, as with many others whose talent is such that they become famous, his contribution is perhaps best appreciated from a distance. He touched us all with his writing. Tensegrity was his attempt to give everyone a first step of a warriors' discipline.

My point my generally is that the personal shortcomings, the lack of "miracles", and the information uncovered about Carol etc. do not undermine the validity of the discipline described. Carlos experienced and described something that was far beyond him as a man. That he fell so far short of being a warrior without the direction that was available to him in his younge days does not in my view bear on whether what he described happened, or not.

So where does this leave us? Where we were before. Alone, staring at infinity. It's time to get past the mourning about Carlos being gone. (And folks, that's what it's about, when you look at it, anger and sadness at being left and wondering what it all meant.) Looking to the witches or former insiders to reveal the "truth" isn't going to get anyone, anywhere.

It's time for everyone to make their own choices and move on. It's certainly worthwhile to question anyone's authority to if they suggest that their path or interpretation of the warrior's way is the only one, and certainly Carlos was guilty of that and much more at times. I very much appreciate Dan's and others posts on silence and dreaming. That sort of "this worked for me and this is how I did it" is what I'd like to see more of from this site.

A Fool

-----
See for yourself...
From: greggabi@aol.com
Date: 11/7/99

anaid,

There is no need for you to have to debate and defend your interpretation of a picture...

We are more than happy to show you the tape of Carlos. You are welcome to see, and to decide for yourself.

Just email us and we can set up a convenient time..

.

I was a true believer for years, and so do not harbor any ill will towards others with whom I shared beliefs. Belief is not static, nor is it solid... but is a liquid that fills in the gaps where we do not SEE.

And seeing trumps believing EVERY time, so see it for yourself, just as we saw it for ourselves.

Greg

-----
Re: See for yourself...
From: Logan
Date: 11/7/99

There is no need for you to have to debate and defend your interpretation of a picture...

We are more than happy to show you the tape of Carlos. You are welcome to see, and to decide for yourself.

Just email us and we can set up a convenient time...

I was a true believer for years, and so do not harbor any ill will towards others with whom I shared beliefs. Belief is not static, nor is it solid... but is a liquid that fills in the gaps where we do not SEE.

And seeing trumps believing EVERY time, so see it for yourself, just as we saw it for ourselves. Greg

To be a true believer for years is not worth much and is only a mimicking of the culture at large. In all those years of being a true believer you should have made the transition to "true experiencer' and actually experience things that defy any sense or value of belief.

You say that you've followed Carlos around for two years "tracking energy" but did you ever follow him into the second attention? Although I don't have anyone to compare notes with I do get the intuition that the realm of total perception that arises when one grabs onto the vibratory force IS the second attention. I also get the feeling that large and vast amounts of time can be spent in the second attention far outweighing the time spent in the tonal. Meaning that one could easily spend the equivalent of 10,000 years in the 2nd attention and 75 years in the tonal.

Taking my experience of the 2nd attention into account there is no way I could say beyond the shadow of a doubt that Carlos died an ordinary death. For a person to have worked with getting into that realm of attention for over 30 years just boggles the possibilities of what a person is capable of to an infinite degree.

True believers could then be defined as people who stay within the realm of the tonal, never leaving and always coming to the 'conclusions' that are demanded by the tonal. True experiencers on the other hand move off the realm of the tonal into other realms of perception that sometimes fit beforehand descriptions and most of the time are wildly different than anything they have heard of before. If true experiencers were to come to any kind of conclusion at all it would be that there exists the possiblitie to spend 10,000 years roaming and 75 years parking and fueling.

And thats NoJoken!

Logan

-----
Re: See for yourself...
From: Satan
Date: 11/9/99

Logan: "To be a true believer for years is not worth much and is only a mimicking of the culture at large."

What means this ... "worth"? "Worth" what ... to whom?

It is best when they believe that their "greatest" experiences --- which are definitely worth more than the "culture" --- are of "worth" to God herself --- then they can be believed to be the best of all, and of great *import* to the HOOOLE OOONIVURSE. And that's no problemo, it's that teensy little all-encompassing niche where everyone is *supposed* to gravitate. And they do. This is the dawning of the age of aquarius, age of aquarius...

"In all those years of being a true believer you should have made the transition to "true experiencer' and actually experience things that defy any sense or value of belief."

Experiencing things which defy belief is of "worth"? Yes, bravo! Pride in their experiences is what sets the humans apart, and makes them all so "special".

"You say that you've followed Carlos around for two years "tracking energy" but did you ever follow him into the second attention?"

Yes, did you ever follow him into his own interpretation of his own "special" experiences? And were your experiences as "special", i.e. were they *worth* a lot?

"Although I don't have anyone to compare notes with I do get the intuition that the realm of total perception that arises when one grabs onto the vibratory force IS the second attention."

With such intuitions it is certain that you are well on your way to being vitally important to God herself, and it is certain that your intuition is well nigh infallible --- no, no, you needn't protest --- like that of the humans who have come before you, your intuition is always absolutely right (indeed, is that not another of our most vital principles here?). And of course you are worth more than the "normal" others to God herself because you have more special experiences. And there are GOOD reasons why your special experiences are ALWAYS worth more than your "normal" experiences, and those special experiences definitely ARE the second attention. Perfect, you've got it all down pat.

"I also get the feeling that large and vast amounts of time can be spent in the second attention far outweighing the time spent in the tonal. Meaning that one could easily spend the equivalent of 10,000 years in the 2nd attention and 75 years in the tonal. "

Yes! You are on the right track. Human feelings, when they do "special" practices, are always correct, as are human intuitions. There are thousands of incredible mystical books all telling exactly how the Oooonivurse really is, and even though they are all totally different, they are all exactly right. Each one is also worth much more than any other. Each one is filled with special practices which really, really work. And naturally, 10,000 years of special experiences is of far greater worth than just another 75 years. 10,000 is bigger and better than 75 to the Oooonivurse, and special is worth more than normal to God herself, how obvious. And I'm sure you are right, you will definitely live for at least 10,000 years. Definitely. And that is more than others. It is better. Definitely.

"Taking my experience of the 2nd attention into account there is no way I could say beyond the shadow of a doubt that Carlos died an ordinary death. For a person to have worked with getting into that realm of attention for over 30 years just boggles the possibilities of what a person is capable of to an infinite degree."

Taking your amazing experiences into account, yes, I'm sure with 30 years of amazing special experiences in the second attention, all of which definitely definitely happened in the second attention, yes, I'm sure you are right, who knows, he could even have risen from the dead or something had he only wished it. One thing we can be sure of --- with all of our special experiences and all the special experiences we KNOW he had which were definitely definitely in the second attention --- is there is NO WAY he died an ordinary death. NO WAY.

NO WAY.

;-)

-Satan

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Article 570
From: Myrddin
Date: 11/8/99

Does any one know the purpous of cleargreen? Or of carlos and all coming up with tensegrity? Do they act with full controled folly? Do any of you? Are there real purpouses to all these post's? These are my questions and I hope some people respond.

I have to say that I have not seen any talk of personal ideas, only other peoples ideas, it's as if this is more for gossop than for actual exploration of the purpous that carlos made avalable. I don't think people should even post if it's for the petty refutaions that seem to dominate. It's contagious.

Does any one hear ever thought about what closing the lineage with a "golden Key" means?

Has anyone ever read the active side of infinte? Theres a part in there that talks of how "infinte" intrudes or harralds it self on a person who has been affected by the intent of THE path. has anyone ever had that happen?

Gotta go.

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Re: Article 570
From: Corey Donovan
Date: 11/9/99

Myrddin asks, and asks:<<<<Does any one know the purpous of cleargreen?>>>>

Originally, or now? You don't think it has something to do with organizing workshops for money and attention, or producing and marketing less and less successful Tensegrity videos?

<<<<Or of carlos and all coming up with tensegrity?>>>>

I have some suspicions. One could speculate that from all the years of karate that Taisha and Florinda did, and all the years of Kung Fu or whatever Castaneda did with Howard Lee, that they realized that regularly doing some physical movements generated well being, balance and a sense of discipline. I note that, when they first started the public workshops in 1993, the "Witches" didn't say anything about "Tensegrity" at all, but did suggest that people do some physical movement practice, specifically Tai Chi.

Castaneda was a great marketer, in his own way, and maybe he realized by the end of 1994 that they needed to "brand" some movements in order to be able to fill up weekend workshops with something repetitive and time consuming, thus making the limited time listening to their "stories" all the more special. This is merely informed speculation, of course.

>>>>Do they act with full controled folly? Do any of you?<<<<

That is one of the loveliest concepts from the books, isn't it? But since everything all of us do is "folly," in the sense that it won't matter in five or ten years, or when we're gone, let alone in 100, isn't the "controlled" part of it simply the conscious knowledge that it won't matter, but doing the best we can anyway? If that's what it is, this website has certainly been a controlled folly. I can't speak for Cleargreen, however. Maybe you should ask them whether they are conscious or not.

>>>>Are there real purpouses to all these post's?<<<<

Well, Logan's are "works of art." Some of us appear to be asking genuine questions, and some of us sometimes try to answer to the best of our ability. Some of us (Dan, I suspect) use these posts and responses as an opportunity to try to explain the "ineffable" (i.e., "seeing"). Linda sometimes tries to give us some much needed comic relief. What was your purpose? Was it "real"?

>>>>Does any one hear ever thought about what closing the lineage with a "golden Key" means?<<<<

One could speculate that it was a poetic explanation for the fact that Castaneda lacked a second act. I really don't think it means much else, since there is precious little evidence of any actual "lineage" behind Castaneda.

>>>>Has anyone ever read the active side of infinte? Theres a part in there that talks of how "infinte" intrudes or harralds it self on a person who has been affected by the intent of THE path. has anyone ever had that happen?<<<<

Is your spelling this atrocious in real life, or is it just the difficulty of writing a post on this system that is lousing up your words? You might try writing your posts in word processing software first, and then pasting them here. And what is the meaning of "Article 570"? This is the second time you've used this title. At any rate, yes, I've read the *Active Side of Inifinity.* I actually read it in galleys before it was published, and then read the ultimate version to see if there were differences. The part about the "infinite intruding on a person affected by the intent of THE path" sounds like more of the wonderful "poetry," i.e., dramatic turns of phrase, at which Castaneda was so adept. Was Castaneda talking from personal experience? He had a talent for dramatizing the lowliest moment, turning honking horns or other loud noises, for example, into "affirmations" of whatever he had just said.

Was he called by the "infinite" to write captivating books so as to make a lot of money so that he could successfully reinvent himself and attract 18 and 19-year-old women into his increasingly bizarre fantasy world, only to die at age 72, leaving behind a bunch of clueless but ego-inflated former sex partners, led by a major grandiose narcissist who is incapable of giving up the charade? Who knows? If so, the infinite has a flair for irony and black comedy, I suppose. Clearly all good things must come to an end, but Castaneda's seemed somewhat premature.

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answer
From:
Date: 11/9/99

Nobody has ever promissed to be consistent with their personal history or to deal and focus on such issues. Personal history matters to important people. If you are so interested in personal data, apply this interest to yuor own lives. What was emphasized from the beginning was that thare will be some ideas extranious to everyday life's point of view and the only way to verify their validity is through practice, practice, practice... Modern man is cought in an axe defined by two main points- thinking and speaking. Sorserers move along another axe that strtches to infinity. This axe is defined by two points: perception and action. Each one should decide where they stand act accordingly.

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Re: answer
From: Satan
Date: 11/9/99

**Nobody has ever promissed to be consistent with their personal history or to deal and focus on such issues. Personal history matters to important people. If you are so interested in personal data, apply this interest to yuor own lives.**

This fallacious rationalization is one of the best I have for hooking TB's. It's so nice the way the TB sufferer invariably fails to see how 1) falsifying or concealing personal history in order to remain unknown, and 2) creating a grandiose, self-serving, misleading history for purposes of personal gain and elevation of status ... are *completely* different matters.

(Of course, the latter was the practice of Castaneda and his minions.)

**What was emphasized from the beginning was that thare will be some ideas extranious to everyday life's point of view and the only way to verify their validity is through practice, practice, practice...**

Ah, another of my favorite principles --- one that has allowed more shenanigans through the ages than is generally within the conceptual capacity of the average human --- one which can be used to justify almost *any* claim. What? You don't believe it is possible to become God herself? Well ... just practice, practice, practice that [insert _dubious practice of choice_]. (What? You're still not God yet? Well, practice harder! Love it, love it, love it!)

** Modern man is cought in an axe defined by two main points- thinking and speaking. Sorserers move along another axe that strtches to infinity. This axe is defined by two points: perception and action. Each one should decide where they stand act accordingly.**

So ye think and speak, but I know of no human who does not perceive and act in varied ways upon their cherished beliefs, and yet what good does it really do them. G'wan now, lemme axe ya --- tell me baby, what's my e-mail address?

-Satan

Sustained Reaction Archive - Page 6