Sustained Reaction


Sustained Reaction Archive - Page 4

Archive Message Index

Daniel? - From: Kevin Peterson - Date: 10/29/99
Re: Daniel? - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 10/30/99
Carlos confesses to fabrication - From: Badger - Date: 10/30/99
Re: Carlos confesses to fabrication - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 10/30/99
Re: Carlos confesses to fabrication - From: Corey Donovan - Date: 10/30/99
Re: Linda? - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 10/30/99
Which is it then, boys? - From: Pikachu - Date: 10/30/99
Re: Which is it then, boys? - From: Corey Donovan - Date: 10/30/99
Pictures of Carlos - From: greggabi@aol.com - Date: 10/31/99
Re: Dan and the bible - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 11/1/99
Re: Dan and the bible - From: White Horse of The Apocolypse - Date: 11/4/99
Re: Dan and the bible - From: Dark Horse in The Seventh Race At Sarah Toga - Date: 11/4/99
Re: Dan and the bible - From: Adelina Cerritos - Date: 11/5/99
Re: Dan and the bible - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 11/6/99
Not Invented Here? - From: J.Wint (paopao@ibm.net) - Date: 10/31/99
Re: Not Invented Here? - From: Corey Donovan - Date: 10/31/99
Re: Not Invented Here? - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 11/1/99
Re: Not Invented Here? - From: joe - Date: 11/1/99
Re: Not Invented Here? - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 11/2/99
Re: Greg, Gabi, and excrements - From: Logan - Date: 11/1/99
Re: Greg, Gabi, and excrements - From: greggabi - Date: 11/1/99
Re: Greg, Gabi, and excrements - From: Logan - Date: 11/1/99
Re: Greg, Gabi, and excrements - From: greggabi - Date: 11/2/99
Re: Greg, Gabi, and excrements - From: Logan - Date: 11/2/99
Re: Greg, Gabi, and excrements - From: greggabi - Date: 11/2/99
Re: Greg, Gabi, and excrements - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 11/2/99
Re: Greg, Gabi, and excrements - From: Al - Date: 11/3/99
Re: Greg, Gabi, and excrements - From: greggabi - Date: 11/3/99
Re: Greg, Gabi, and excrements - From: AL - Date: 11/3/99
Re: Greg, Gabi, and excrements - From: gabi - Date: 11/3/99
Where are you going Corey ? - From: J. Stender - Date: 11/1/99
Balance - From: J. Stender - Date: 11/4/99
L. Ron Hubbard - From: Anaid - Date: 11/1/99
Re: too close... for Dan et al. - From: Calixto - Date: 11/1/99
Re: L. Ron Hubbard - From: JimDBB - Date: 11/5/99
Re: L. Ron Hubbard - From: anaid - Date: 11/5/99
Re: L. Ron Hubbard - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 11/6/99
Re: L. Ron Hubbard - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 11/6/99
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Daniel?
From: Kevin Peterson
Date: 10/29/99

Daniel, just to make sure I'm not misreading your position, do you claim that Castaneda invented the "magical passes" (i'm not refering to Tensegrity since he did admit to "inventing" it, i.e. pulling together four different strands of passes) or that he "borrowed" them from Oriental martial arts (i.e. from Howard Lee's Choi Lai Fut Kung Fu)?

If you do hold this position, what do you base it on?

One more thing, have you ever been in a combat situation?

If you deem my questions not "idiotic", I hope you will respond candidly.

Kevin Peterson

P.S. What martial arts did you practice?

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Re: Daniel?
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 10/30/99

Carlos openly confessed he got the passes from various sources. One night he even showed us a couple he got directly from Howard Lee. Among those are the rotating arm passes, and a pushing hand pass, and a chicken type pass.

He also stated that don Juan didn't do passes like this at all, he just contorted his body. The idea of formal passes he claimed for himself.

Now we also have some passes from the "blue scout", but as we know that's impossible since she is just a teenage runaway an old man picked up as her sugar daddy.

And don't forget that early on, about the same time, Carlos picked up Carol and Taisha, who were black belts in the JKA. A couple of years later he started actually studying kung fu with Howard Lee, and did so for about 15 years as I recall.

So it doesn't take too much to stretch to the conclusion that he made them all up. But that's a matter of belief. I was just saying that to explain someone's question about possible injuries. My point was, these might not be very old exercises, and not yet field tested. So injuries wouldn't be surprising.

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Carlos confesses to fabrication
From: Badger
Date: 10/30/99

"Carlos openly confessed he got the passes from various sources," says avowed dreaming expert Daniel Lawton.

"It doesn't take too much to stretch to the conclusion that he made them all up. But that's a matter of belief," he concludes.

Dude, are you for real? Why would he tell you he made them all up and then go out and promote their ancient origin to workshop participants?

Did he trust you that much? Do your buddies agree with you on this? After all you could have blown his cover with this information.

I don't know, but reading your other posts on dreaming, seeing, and martial arts it seems you're having a good ol' time boosting your idea of yourself as an expert of sorts. Just look at the number of posts with your name! Wow!

Well, keep having fun!

Cheerio!

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Re: Carlos confesses to fabrication
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 10/30/99

Carlos openly confessed he got the passes from various sources," says avowed dreaming expert Daniel Lawton.

"It doesn't take too much to stretch to the conclusion that he made them all up. But that's a matter of belief," he concludes. >Dude, are you for real? Why would he tell you he made them all up and then go out and promote their ancient origin to workshop participants?

You've got to read closer. I said he admitted to getting them from "various sources". He intended us to believe that one of those sources was the ancient sorcerers, besides the "blue scout" and Howard Lee. The idea was that he could "see energy", so it didn't matter where they came from or how often he changed them.

>Did he trust you that much? Do your buddies agree with you on this? After all you could have blown his cover with this information.

Nah. He's too slippery for that. The only people who could really do him damage would be the witches or blue scout. Maybe Kylie could cause trouble. She once told a spacey story about how they'd go into an "energetic bubble" and make up new passes.

>I don't know, but reading your other posts on dreaming, seeing, and martial arts it seems you're having a good ol' time boosting your idea of yourself as an expert of sorts. Just look at the number of posts with your name! Wow!

It might seem like that, but if you want to talk about painting or about camera design I'll talk just as much. Unfortunately, we've been brainwashed to feel ashamed if we try to take anything as an actual do-able practical endeavor. I'm trying to point out (over and over and over) that this should be a practical endeavor, that it's no big deal, and that the mystique is really a trick to keep that carrot dangling so far away you'll never figure out it's really an orange.

If you knew how much time I put into this, an insane amount of time and concentration, you'd think I wasn't really as good at it as I should be. It's just that I had no life at the time, Carlos was everything. Here's an example. Carlos once made an off-hand comment in sunday class that it was good to learn a foreign language because it helped move one away from the flier's mind. That night I went to 3 bookstores, bought every dictionary I could find on spanish, and proceed to figure out which were the most common 3000 words. In the next 1 month I memorized 2000 of them using flash cards. That's how seriously I took Carlos' advice. It was largely because of that that I began to wonder about cleargreen's stance that "you can't talk about energy". It seemed like a mighty convienient way of keeping people under control. As I figured out what seeing energy was like, I realized that you not only can talk about it, but that you should. It made me notice that Carlos did almost nothing in class BUT talk about energy. So it was a case of a cherished line drawn between apprentice and master, and that crossing that line messed up the pecking order in cleargreen, thus it's not that you can't talk about seeing energy, but that it isn't profitable because everyone will get you for it.

Here's an example. There were 2 people in class that Carlos identified as having double energy bodies. One of them confided in me that from that day on no one in the class treated him the same. People were secretly hostile towards him. Especially the ones eager to get "in" to cleargreen. They did everything but spit on him. I observed that too.

So I'm fighting against the idea that we have to keep our mouths shut. And, frankly, it's interesting to talk about it. I get to hear about other people's dreaming experiences and I've learned that there are some people who navigate like I do, and some who navigate in a way I can't comprehend at all. Usually I can't figure out the women, the men tend to be more like me.

As far as discussing seeing, I expect one of these days I'll get to have a chat here with someone on the verge who doesn't realize it, then maybe I can save them the time I lost because no one would talk about it. After investing all the effort, it would feel good to see if it was possible to save someone some time by saying, "Yes, that's closer to it. Do that more!"

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Re: Carlos confesses to fabrication
From: Corey Donovan
Date: 10/30/99

Badger (cute and appropriate name): commented back to Dan:>>>>"Carlos openly confessed he got the passes from various sources," says avowed dreaming expert Daniel Lawton. "It doesn't take too much to stretch to the conclusion that he made them all up. But that's a matter of belief," he concludes. Dude, are you for real? Why would he tell you he made them all up and then go out and promote their ancient origin to workshop participants? Did he trust you that much? Do your buddies agree with you on this? After all you could have blown his cover with this information.<<<<

Dan was accurately describing some of the "passes" (mainly karate-type strikes and punches of various kinds) that Castaneda taught at a number of the night sessions that several of us in the Sunday sessions were sometimes invited to (but that were otherwise primarily for the core group at Cleargreen). In a number of those sessions that I attended, Castaneda specifically attributed some of the hits, strikes and pieces of long forms to Howard Lee. On at least two occasions, he also did very amusing imitations of Howard Lee--making the point that the guy has fantastic "ch'i" in his body, but that he talks in a very subdued, ineloquent, low-ch'i way. Castaneda claimed that he had done everything he could think of to help Howard with this "problem," but had ultimately concluded that Lee was just "dead at the neck." At any rate, I can definitely confirm that Castaneda attributed some of those moves to Howard Lee (and frankly, at some of those night sessions, which were held five nights a week when Castaneda was healthy, he often seemed to be doing anything to kill time and act like he was teaching us something), and the several other Sunday people who were there on a regular basis could confirm it too. (Unfortunately, however, at least four of those people are now Tensegrity instructors on the Cleargreen payroll.)

--Corey

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Re: Linda?
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 10/30/99

Speaking of gurus with guns, I once heard that Carlos had bragged about having some people killed and that this, among countless other things, was one of the things that kept people's mouths shut. That and the tendancy of cleargreen to trash people behind the scenes. I kind of got the impression that Keith was aluding to cleargreen's rumour that Corey and others had a "secret motive" for this website. Yet another example of Carlos' teachings being taken to heart by cleargreen. If they leave you or you toss them out, trash them so that no one will listen to them (or pay them off).

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Which is it then, boys?
From: Pikachu
Date: 10/30/99

So which is it then, kids?

Corey Donovan, "...someone who, by most accounts, was a good lover..." (refering to CC).

CalixtoM, " And by the way, more than half of the reports I've heard indicate that the sex he did manage to have was rather "ordinary"... "

You guys wanna talk amongst yourselves and come to an agreement so all the SA adherents can know what to think on this matter?

Frankly I'd be more disconcerted if it was discovered that he had to use Viagra or had a penis enlargement : > ]

Adieu, from Pokemon Land!

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Re: Which is it then, boys?
From: Corey Donovan
Date: 10/30/99

Pikachu commented (twice):>>>>Corey Donovan, "...someone who, by most accounts, was a good lover..." (refering to CC). CalixtoM, " And by the way, more than half of the reports I've heard indicate that the sex he did manage to have was rather "ordinary"... ">>>>

I guess it's just been my privilege to talk with more of the satisfied partners. But more are gradually surfacing every day, so maybe one of these we can get a Kinsey researcher to come in and really get to the bottom of the kind of important question that inquiring minds like yours might be asking.

BTW, personally I don't much care about the sex stuff (except for the weirdness of his going so far out of his way, seemingly unnecessarily, to claim at so many workshops, etc., that he wasn't having sex--and the judgey things he said about Alan Watts and some big female guru he constantly maligned for having sex lives). I'm more focused on the stuff that was in the books that was inspiring and seemed to be of value. If it came from other sources, maybe we can find more such material from a source that isn't, at this point, so compromised by the distance between their grandiose personal description and their real life.

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Pictures of Carlos
From: greggabi@aol.com
Date: 10/31/99

It has been exactly one year since you all found out what we were up to, so in honor of one year of pure fun, here are some pictures of Carlos, and a brief story for your amusement...

They can be found at:

http://hometown.aol.com/greggabi/

Picture index:

1. This little clay dog was used as a doorstop in Carlos' house(we were told by someone who saw it there), and when it was broken and thrown away, the Humane Society Midnight Trash Search and Rescue Team saved the little fellow from a dark fate in a landfill, to become our mascot. (The name Heidi Balogna is a takeoff of LA Eidolona, Cleargreen's publishing business.)

Heidi has since become cannonized and is now the patron saint of garbage pickers everywhere.

2. Carlos leaving Dance Home after the Sunday class.

3. Carlos and friends.

4. The gap in the hedge where Carlos went into and out of his house. Only women were allowed through that gate.

5. Carlos being helped to the house, less than a month before he died.

This was the last time we saw him...

Greg

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Re: Dan and the bible
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/1/99

This isn't a good place for this type of discussion. People are already hostile towards Corey's revealing info, and looking for any excuse at all to dismiss it. So you gave a long post about flaws in the bible, which I'd like to refute just because the topic interests me, but posting that will provide fodder for the people that would rather ignore the facts.

Anyone offended by christianity (or the word penis too) should skip this post.

It's easy to disprove the points you made about the bible, but it would take a long volume of material and then I'd be accused of trying to convert people to christianity.

I'll see how much I can get away with without being accused. Count the accusations after this post, I hope Corey doesn't regret it.

The scholars you referred to are known as "higher critics" and are not commonly known of as scholars by people really versused in the languages required to straighten out the messy king james translation. They just make a living writing books for people already convinced they should reject their native religion and who like to read assurances. I've picked up books by them on a number of occasions, hoping to find someone that will undo what I learned by studying the bible (I don't want to think it's rational either), but they always are loaded to the hilt with faulty arguments.

Usually they take their arguments from mistranslations into old english or misinterpretations of idioms. For instance, noah's son got noah drunk and "uncovered his father's nakedness". That's an hebraism (polite saying to hide something rude) for having sex with his mother. Yet some of those "scholars" you mentioned use it as if it meant he saw his father's penis. Sometimes the bible seems that petty, but it's usually due to mistranslation. For instance, did you know that Eve had sex with satan, there wasn't any fruit involved? But the story as told by christians is nonsensical and makes it seem really petty, like they should eat that fruit or they'll be killed. With that kind of nonsense no wonder everyone is bitter against the bible.

I'll just take one of your specific points:

>That when Jesus was dying on the cross and said "Lord, why have you forsaken me " he was complaining that all he was dying for was for nothing.

First of all, this is a quote from Psalms 22. If you read that, you'll find it's a totally accurate description of him being crucified, down to the smallest detail, like the men gambling for his clothing. It was written 1000 years before the fact. If you look deeper you'll see he never referred to God as "Lord" but always as father, so he was clearly quoting. He ends with "It is finished" which is the last line of psalms 22. In other words, if you take that to be true, he was pointing out that this was predicted. Some scholars believe he quoted the whole thing, but the disciples were too dense to get it and didn't realize it, so they only wrote the start and the end Now that doesn't prove someone really cleaver didn't make up his saying that. But they would have to be really good scholars because if you ask around you won't find many who are familiar with that. Even scholars argue about it, but read psalms 22 and you won't have any doubt that's what he was quoting. But read the whole thing, and compare each line to the series of events before and during the crucification. Unfortunately, that takes a pretty good knowledge of the sequence of events.

That's the kind of scary prediction that happens over and over in the bible, including placing most of the nations on the earth today in both local and economical status. For instance, Jacob and Essau, born non-identical twins, mean "heel grabber" and "red", implying Jacob will forever be grabbing Essau's heels. Essau also has a secondary meaning of "hairy". It's easy to trace Essau to Russia through migrations and funny to note that the particular ruling class in russia is known for body hair (especially eye brows). So you won't get confused, at one point in the bible their name is changed to Edom, which still means "red", and later to "Rush". Then you can even trace the people themselves, but it takes more work. Note that russia calls itself the "red" nation to this day. At one point in the bible it's predicted that as punishment for not caring about his heritage Edom will always live away from the "fat" of the land. To this day Russia is situated north of the united states, in land that is difficult to grow food. And their political system outlawed christianity and judaism, carrying on the prediction that they don't care about their heritage (history). Later it's predicted that for refusing passage of israel, Edom's king line will be destroyed. It predicts the king will be thrown into a pit and lime is poured over his body. Just 2 years ago Anastasia and her family were found, the last of the king line, in a grave into which lime was poured. The russians aren't aware of their identy as edom (and christians aren't either), so it wasn't a self-fullfilled prophecy. When the body was found some scientists compared the DNA to a royal member of the english family and got a match, meaning that king was related to the kings in england.

Now Jacob, the other brother, gave birth to Isaac. The term "saxons" means sons of isaac, os the early english believed they were descendant from Jacob. There are also the names of 3 known princesses of israel written at the base of a very old building in england. In the bible, most of the descendants of Jacob ended up in a land where the celtic language was spoken. They were then pushed over the caucasis mountains. The term caucasian means the people who came from the caucasis mountains.

The people of early ireland spoke the celtic language, then potatoe famine drove them into other places, and some ended up here. But 2 of the original family members formed the tribe of Judah, which ended up back in israel. Christians aren't aware of the connection, yet we end up defending israel in wars and with military protection to this day, as predicted in the bible. We aren't aware of it at all, yet it happens over and over. Just try predicting something with that accuracy 3000 years before it happens.

It was also predicted that israel would return to their home land, triggering the last generation. World war 2 insured that, with us saving them and the hostility they experienced driving them back to israel. Since then about 6 major predictions which were only supposed to happen after their return have come true, including another about old edom, called "wormwood" predicting a catastrophy would polute the waters and kill many men. Wormwood is chernoble in russian. Chernoble (sp?) was that power plant that melted down and killed so many of the surrounding people.

Again, I'm not trying to convert anyone, I just looked for the info that Carlos said was there, namele predictions that came true, and found it interesting because I don't have an aversion to the bible, just to christians. Christians suck. The bible is interesting if you read it with understanding.

Other fun fact: Adam and Eve weren't the first man and woman, it says so if you read carefully and take in to account that adam also means "man", thus when the singular adam is reffered to a partical of "the" is used, meaning "the adam" or "the man named adam". Unfortunately that particle isn't used in the king james, because they didn't realize this, even though there was a big contradiction when Cain went to the land of nod and found other people which couldn't have been there if you assume adam was the first. Check it out. The 6th day both man and woman are made at the same time, for hunting, gathering, fishing, etc. Then on a seperate day, the 8th, it says there weren't any farmers (tillers of garden), so adam was made.

Again, I feel like I'm going to be accused of converting people. So let me also say that Carlos advised learning a hobby like furnature making, I picked painting, and I paint pretty darned good now, having put equal time in to that. In fact, cleargreen is just now catching on, you'll see that at one of the last workshops they started telling people to take up painting. I just always took Carlos' advice when I heard it.

So don't anyone accuse me of trying to convert people. I just did what Carlos said, but came to a different conclusion than he did (as usual), probably because I wasn't clouded by catholicism. I've never been in a church in my life, but clearly Carlos has.

The predictions are what Carlos was referring to when he said only the fliers could have written the bible because only they can control human events. Carlos used to routinely watch TV preachers late at night.

Recapitulation? If I tell you how much I did I'll get accused of bragging again. But it's just the facts. I was obsessed! I started years before the workshops, 2 to 3 hours per day. I finished one recapitulation (with a list 55 pages long) after 3 years, then went driving to retrace my entire life, looking for things I'd missed, concerned I hadn't done a good enough job. I then went to the grocery store, walking daily up and down the isles, looking at every object to see if it triggered any more to recapitulate. Also, whenever I drove I searched the side of the road looking for objects that would trigger more memories. When I had cleared all that out, I took a small dictionary and proceeded to see if any of the words in it triggered more to recapitulate. When I was done, I started over, with a new random list.

It had a great effect on me, but the effect was mostly to extract me from other people. Their expectations of me didn't matter to me, meaning I became able to be unconcerned with what they wanted. That seemed like a very good thing at the time, but now I'm not certain. It's nice to be detached from a personal point of view, but it's a bit cruel on the attached people. Unless it extends one's life I have to wonder if it's good. Research shows that people with close family ties live longer, now I have none (except for some I initiated by Carlos' suggestion). Anyway, recapitulation opened up my dreaming attention, which I believe is the main benefit.

If you mean to imply that I need to recapitulate more, then I'll see what crap the bible is, you're barking up the wrong tree. Try studying it with a good scholar, if you can find one. I suggest a grouchy old marine called Arnold Murray. Out here he's on channel 18 between 2 and 5 in the morning. I often use his monotonous voice to go in to dreaming. I started watching him trying to figure out who Carlos' "reverend osgood" was, but he was such an outstanding story teller and scholar that I kept watching when there was nothing else on TV. He isn't popular with churches or most christians because he constantly calls them all beggars, he often gets booted from TV stations for criticizing organized religion. According to him, 99% of christians fail in the end, and it's true that the bible says that. I believe there are only 151K who don't fail, not to say this has anything to do with hell. Considering there are 2 billion christians, it says what we all know to be a fact, people who call themselves christians are usually deluded.

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Re: Dan and the bible
From: White Horse of The Apocolypse
Date: 11/4/99

I was going to qoute your article Dan but the form is difficult to format. All your points are well taken and accurate energetic translation of The Bible. Carlos,s primary bid was the role of The Anti-Christ which he fell just shy of completing due to time constraints and a continuing level of toxicity in the second attention. The Bible is a transcription of Sorcery. 12 apostles plus one betrayer, one messiah, one virgin and one whore forms the required 16 person bid for control of the second attention or in Carlos story a 16 person warriors party. In your article you stated Eve had sex with Satan. If the wall of light that contains this realm were in is called-translated satan or second attention it would correlate that Eve tried to control the outgoing wall/satan thru energetic interaction. This paralells Tiggs journey thru the second attention. You qouted a scruffy iconoclastic television source as saying only 151.000 christians would succeed in their task which translated into Carloses transcription of the bidding process means to escape the wall/satan/second attention or a purging process of useless energies formed while transiting this world. The purgatory analogy. That success ratio is 0.002 % success rate for 2 billion approximately. In The Bible God and The Devil and Adam are one person in three worlds simultaneously. Incoming barrier Adam as Child-Devil/Earth on world Adam as Adam adult/outgoing barrier Adam as God/Judge ... Satan being the fouth person or Adam divided as he battles his female partner on the outgoing barrier for control of their destination choice. When Eve makes a play for sovereignty. Sattan S. Atten-ion. This is a small planet in a small galaxy in cloud of energy which is one of uncounted clouds of energy. With detachment and polite curiousity all of this is easy to decipher. It takes detachment. The fatal flaw in all bids related to The Bible/Sorcerers Handbook is that the barriers/second attention/Satan, is a wiley opponent. Willing to offer safe passage to anyone who can defeat through a legal sorcery bid according to the law all previous bids. Therefor granting the least payment for the greatest service rendered. With the coming of the new millenium be not in doubt that many have deciphered the bible. Some for pleasure, some for profit, some for hobby. But with the end of "The Game" only "One" goes free. Everyone else pays there fare and rides the bus to the next location of choice according to the energy saved and acquired through just living and peaceful co-existence with their fellow travelers. Viva The Dream-Viva Life-Viva "The One" who payed a thousand times a thousand times a thousand times a thousand times the usual price of freedom. Viva those who dared to try like CC in his own misguided but good intentioned way. For as the old folk shall say "The Road to Hell is paved with good intentions". In the end he left behind a stellar piece of artwork that even the creator must concede is built from the scraps ashes and bones of other artworks but still bears thedistinct imprimatur of an original artist. As the sculptor uses stone and metal and the painter pigments and oils the poet and philosopher must use words and ideas that are understood and then shaped into more complex arrangements and synergies of understanding. A thousand years from now CC books shall be read in the context you cite. He admonished his followers to read The Bible so they would know what he knew about "The Game" - "The Walls" and the process of "Bids". Even among the buddhist there are "The Black Hats". Yet "All in All" Satan was the victor and the barriers stand to collect the toll as they have for trillions of years. Knowledge is power. Power leads to truth. Truth is eternal. The Supreme Creator is The Infinite. Yet we lesser finite creators get to have our fun too. Lets not forget sex drugs and rock and roll. Party on....

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Re: Dan and the bible
From: Dark Horse in The Seventh Race At Sarah Toga
Date: 11/4/99

Previous article cites: Genesis as Two beings in energy realm.Male as navigator Female as co-pilot. Life is understood according to String Theory physics as an "Instantaneous" occurence which the individual is reviewing as opposed to living. Life is thought of as a great arc or bridge of light rising out of a dark flat plane and then returning into a dark flat plane. Where many bridges rise simultaneously and continuously a world or set of parameters occur "Sphere of Inter-Action" With the true existence being as a dark cloud of awareness congregating with other clouds of seperate distinct awareness in the dark plane. The area outside of the dark slab being the infinite, the dark slab being the finite beings and the arcs/bridges of light, being existences. Seeming long as experienced but known only as passing moments when being has/is returned into eternal form. All worlds of light energy being temporary compared to the infinte sea of darkness.

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Re: Dan and the bible
From: Adelina Cerritos
Date: 11/5/99

Regarding Danís response to JG:I don't believe what you have written is sensible. It is a rationalization. Look-The people born in Pakistan usually become Muslim, people born in Israel usually become Jews, People born in the US are Christian or Jewish. Everybody get the local indoctrination.

Everybody wants a navigator to lead him or her. That's why (I hope) Castaneda was interested in late night preachers. I mean these guys are clowns. Who are you kidding? Good preachers have a certain rhythm in their speech and if they communicate through their style that they are confident in what they are saying-that they know the way- we humans automatically become mesmerized by them because we are afraid of uncertainty. Iím no different. I watch a late night preacher on occasion and begin to feel drawn in. Then I ask myself what and why do I feel this. When have I felt this in the past? Memories come forth of schoolteachers, parents, and friends I looked up to and admired and always within the context of some anxiety and uncertainty. I remember a feeling of being willing to surrender myself to another person. Let that person take care of me. Navigate my way through the scary world. Children surrender to their parents and adopt their "ideology". I think other women know what Iím taking about. Itís what women do with men so often-surrender themselves. Then later we do awful things to get back at them. We surrender to the preacher-to Castaneda-to our parents only so long as they can comfort us- when they are gone or we are able to navigate a little on our own- we act as though they never existed and try to discredit them as way of not having to admit to ourselves that we allowed ourselves to surrender to them. That's not true for everybody but it's a working generality for purposes of discussion on the internet anyway.These religions have fought each other throughout history. They are opposed to each other. They all can't be right. Some or all are wrong. You became interested in the bible because the person who mesmerized you told you to. I don't think you have done what is called recapitulation in a meaningful way. Youíre really obsessive about everything so you get caught up in minutae. That stuff you wrote on the bible is awful. I have no interest in unraveling it. Youíre the one whose reading the pop religion books, not me. I mean I don't know what youíre talking about its not complex-itís goofy.Most true believers that are biblical scholars do not find it necessary to believe that Matthew Mark Luke or John wrote The Gospels. The factual information I emphasized is not disputed by most true believers that are also scholars. Some of them tell me they believe because they have faith, not because there is any factual support. But you should look into it on your own. Why can't you read AN Wilson? Don't be so huffy.

My bible in Psalms 22 does not have anything like what you quoted and doesn't end in the line "It is done". It says, "The lord has saved us". You know there's quite a few versions of Christianity. What was Christ-an Episcopalian? Look at its history it's really bad. Even today the Catholic and Protestant Churches are involved in all kinds of financial scandals. The Roman Catholic Church used to own the Baretta Handgun Company. The Church persecuted the Indians of Mexico and anyone who was considered a sorcerer. You can take more current information like this about the Church and recapitulate it back in history. There are threads that connect events in history. Christianity has a consistent history. The Church hierarchy (not necessarily the isolated priest or priests) always sides with the rich, not the poor. That seems to be in contradiction to what Paul and Jesus allegedly said.

They are forcing the retirement of the archbishop of Chiapas who is sympathetic to the Indians and putting in one of the Pope's men who is not. There is a thread that goes back thousands of years.

Biblical criticism is only about one hundred and fifty years old and it is still very difficult to get exposure to.

This is very much related to Castaneda. Iím telling you that if you are from the West the ingredients that make up your socialization have their basis in Christianity and Judaism. You donít have to raised Catholic or protestant to be affected by them because you are raised in a Judeo-Christian environment even if you parents were atheists. It all encompassing and overwhelming.I believe Christianity (we humans created it) is not something to blame- thats pointless -but something to consider as an essential part of our individual development.

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Re: Dan and the bible
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/6/99

>My bible in Psalms 22 does not have anything like what you quoted and doesn't end in the line "It is done". It says, "The lord has saved us".

You have to go back and retranslate the original hebrew. A king james bible isn't the original. There are some good scholars who have done that, there's a very good bible called "The companion bible", which gives alternate translations in the margin. The line you quoted is best translated as "it is finished", and the mistranslation is the reason that "bible scholars" aren't generally aware of the facts I mentioned. Kind of sad when people only look at the mediocre king james translation, it makes so much nonsensical.

The stuff I said wasn't weird or strange, it was derived from a study of the original manuscripts. And to me that's the most interesting part, not what churches teach.

>What was Christ-an Episcopalian? Look at its history it's really bad. Even today the Catholic and Protestant Churches are involved in all kinds of financial scandals. The Roman Catholic Church used to own the Baretta Handgun Company.

That's why I think churches stink. That has nothing to do with the manuscripts, they predict exactly what you said, christians cheating christians, killing each other, breaking up into groups with conflicting beliefs. At the end 99.999% of christians are fooled when satan shows up pretending to be christ. Look at teachings today, christians don't even know the first thing about all the prophesies of the old and new testament, namely that satan comes back pretending to be jesus and fools everyone because they didn't actually ever read the bible.

I didn't say that was true, just that it's what the manuscripts say, hundreds of times. That's why I said the bible is consistant, there are a few themes that run through it over and over again, disguised in parables and types, but completely consistant once you are familiar with the base prophecy.

> The Church persecuted the Indians of Mexico and anyone who was considered a sorcerer.

A sorcerer by biblical deffinition is someone who uses drugs to have a vision. Someone who doesn't use drugs to have a vision is not a sorcerer. They become a "dreamer of dreams" if they take their visions and cause people to alter their lives based on the truth of the vision. But if they keep it to themselves there's no category for them, although there's the implication it's folly to pursue it.

No one is supposed to kill them, that just shows what happens when people get caught up in a cult, like what has happened to people caught up in Carlos.

>The Church hierarchy (not necessarily the isolated priest or priests) always sides with the rich, not the poor. That seems to be in contradiction to what Paul and Jesus allegedly said.

Not at all. They predict over and over again that churches will stink. Get a "Strong's Concordance", so that you can look up anything in the bible easily, it will also allow you to correct bad translations. Then take the word "Bethel", meaning house of god, or church, and look at the biblical prophesies concerning it. For instance, in the end times "Bethel will come to naught", or "Bethel has become a house of whoredoms" (paraphrases). Check out the angel's message to the 7 churches in revelations. Only 2 were found without fault, the others were ready to be rejected.

It's getting a bit religious here, my appologies. This started as a thread pointing out that there are other books besides Carlos' with consitant threads. The bible fits that category, and has a load of prophesy that came true also. In that sense it eclipses Carlos' books.

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Not Invented Here?
From: J.Wint (paopao@ibm.net)
Date: 10/31/99

Would you pause the revelations a moment to consider this point? The more flawed a character Carlos turns out to have been, the less one is able to credit that he might have invented Don Juan.

That's a feeling, not a rational argument. There's no reason in logic why a deeply flawed person couldn't invent a deeply unflawed one. But in practice it's quite unusual. It's hard to write fiction without it tasting of the writer. It's quite hard to write about actual events that way, but less so. The books have a certain taste about them, which it seems Carlos didn't have about him; if the taste didn't come from Carlos, then one feels it might have come from Don Juan.

It's the taste of a certain kind of truth, and the taste of writing that is good because it's unforced and not trying to persuade, simply to report. Puzzlingly, both kinds of taste tail off part way through the Active Side of Infinity.

Replica Watches  Replica Watches

Maybe (to mention names that have cropped up on this site) Goethe or Shakespeare could have invented these things, but surely not Carlos - nor for that matter Ron Hubbard (and I have considerable doubts about whether Frank Herbert could have done it). If it had been Philip K Dick - well, just possibly maybe - but it wouldn't have been so sweetly done. Actually, I don't really think Goethe could have done it, but one hase to be polite about the great names of history.

I have no idea what the revelations will be, but to judge by the lead-ups we've been treated to on this lively BB, I expect they'll be absolutely ghastly. However, what I'm saying is, the more ghastly the revelations, the more the books will believably be what they indeed purport to be - the account of a real brujo's teachings given to an obsessively indulgent and barely trustworthy somethingorother.

Unless of course he copied the books from some obscure source. But none of the source material so far adduced comes close. I'd like to know more about the sources of the Way of Wyrd (Brian Bates), however.

Another puzzle is that Taisha's book is remarkably well written. Truth or fiction, and character flaws or no, good writing takes years of practice, and it's baffling how Taisha could have gotten that practice. Perhaps that bit in the foreword about learning to write like a sorcerer is literally true. (Daniel, you were wondering what use seeing might be).

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Re: Not Invented Here?
From: Corey Donovan
Date: 10/31/99

J. Wint opined:>>>>Would you pause the revelations a moment to consider this point? The more flawed a character Carlos turns out to have been, the less one is able to credit that he might have invented Don Juan. That's a feeling, not a rational argument. There's no reason in logic why a deeply flawed person couldn't invent a deeply unflawed one. But in practice it's quite unusual. It's hard to write fiction without it tasting of the writer. It's quite hard to write about actual events that way, but less so. The books have a certain taste about them, which it seems Carlos didn't have about him; if the taste didn't come from Carlos, then one feels it might have come from Don Juan. It's the taste of a certain kind of truth, and the taste of writing that is good because it's unforced and not trying to persuade, simply to report. Puzzlingly, both kinds of taste tail off part way through the Active Side of Infinity. Maybe (to mention names that have cropped up on this site) Goethe or Shakespeare could have invented these things, but surely not Carlos - nor for that matter Ron Hubbard (and I have considerable doubts about whether Frank Herbert could have done it). If it had been Philip K Dick - well, just possibly maybe - but it wouldn't have been so sweetly done. Actually, I don't really think Goethe could have done it, but one hase to be polite about the great names of history.<<<<

Well I appreciate your acknowledging that this is not a particularly rational argument. It is also one that people who know Castaneda only from his books often mention (i.e., Castaneda paints himself as being so thoroughly "dense" in the books, asking the same question for the nth time that we, his readers, know we wouldn't be in his place, that it is easy for many to discount him).

My experience of Castaneda after hundreds of hours of sessions (both Sundays and night sessions and several meals) was that his main talent was his creativity and ability to spin a yarn. The one thing I knew that wasn't true during the Sunday sessions that he often used to talk about--growing up in Brazil, and the colorful characters he interacted with at various points in his childhood (like the owner of a gambling establishment who supposedly took an eleven or twelve-year-old Castaneda on as his protege, sending his bouncer over to Castaneda's house after midnight to catch him as he jumped out the window so that his parents wouldn't know he was sneaking out every night)--were so vivid and wonderful that, at least for the moment, it was preferable to believe those stories than his documented early history of growing up exclusively in Peru.

Believe me, I understand how compelling his books have been for many of us--how they grabbed our attention for concepts and philosophies that are found elsewhere but rarely in such a dramatic and entrancing way. If you'll read the excerpt from *Prophetic Charisma* on this site (or better yet, check out the whole book) you'll see that Castaneda was hardly unique in his "special ability" to inspire and motivate people in this way. He is also hardly unique in writing a body of material that appeals to a certain group of people (followers of Rajneesh, who wrote mounds of intriguing stuff, find lots of parallels, and other examples have already been given). At any rate, to say it would take a Goethe or Shakespeare to come up with an idealized figure like don Juan is simply bogus. Maybe you need to expand your reading list, or simply check out some of the myths listed in Joseph Campbell's essays about "heroes." Castaneda was a brilliant storyteller and dramatist--arguably this was his one major talent--so his success with the character of "don Juan" should really come as no surprise at all.

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Re: Not Invented Here?
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/1/99

Actually, I learned to write like that. I can visualize text, and still control my waking body enough to write it down. But alas, it comes out as nonsense and I can only write a little before I wake up.

I agree with you about Carlos. There's speculation that there was a real sorcerer from the Cauhilla reservation on whom Carlos patterened his research. An anthropologist who specialized in that reservation, Lowell Bean, was a fan of Carlos'. Something about his books rung true for him.

But I have to disagree with you about Carlos not being able to make up things. Weekly he entertained us with the stories he made up in sunday class. He was a captivating story make-upper. He was great at it! And all of them had the same cutting, critical, dirty humour we attribute to don Juan. Always getting to the core of social interaction, and finding shit there.

Carlos was also an avid reader, we know well that he was versed with all kinds of philisophers. It's not hard to believe he read everything he could and encorporated the stuff that rung true to him into don Juan. And I'm not sure it's so brilliant. I love it, it hit a note with me, but ask around. Other people will say it sounds like rubbish. We just like it. That doesn't prove it's a higher truth. Maybe we're just bitter people who see flaws in everything.

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Re: Not Invented Here?
From: joe
Date: 11/1/99

It's hard to discount the underlying tone of the cc series. I find them philosophically consistent. The series demands the most outrageous allegiance of it's readers, yet the underlying themes are consistent. If even a small part of the stories are true then we have a gem in terms of cultural knowledge. It may be (in your estimation) a tarnished gem and one that needs quite a bit of work but... My opinion is that some of the 'tales' may be complete fabrications (the waterfall scene and dg) and others are possibly shameless exaggerations. The author's character 'flaws' seem to point to such. One comes into the series with a healthy skepticism, there's no other way to approach it. I mentioned in another post that nothing in your analysis discredits the total body of his work or question the authenticity of his apprenticeship or his principle characters. Other than, of course, accepting his story-telling ability. I've yet to see one revelation that brings into question his apprenticeship. It's good to realize the limits of your 'evidence', and good for others as well. It's possible that Carlos made it all up, in which case he's not just a good story teller, he's a genius. I base that on my evaluation of the underlying consistency of the themes, philosophies and the interwoven story lines, not on his pedantic style. I also agree with whomever noted that Taisha's book is extraordinarily good. The second possibility is that he actually was an apprentice and then there is a large spectrum of possibilities as to what's 'real' and what's fabrication. My disappointment comes to this. You have met the man and have a lot more experience with him than I do. Do you have an objective appraisal of him on a personal level that you can reliably reflect, outside of your strident judgement of his group and actions? (dan, corey, linda?). That would be interesting. In either case (apprentice or sham) he was extraordinary. You don't consider yourselves so but I think you are lucky to have known him. (think before you respond, I could write your knee-jerk response myself).

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Re: Not Invented Here?
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/2/99

Actually, the feeling I got from being around him was that he was genuine. I remember him constantly promising to us, after making some wild claim, that some day we'd experience that, he promised it.

So long before any of this info came out, perhaps almost immediatly after being in his class, I began to relearn what sorcery was. Just like people at the workshops, but faster because of the constant exposure.

I started to formulate that sorcery was in fact making things up. But that there was an indescribable mental state that developed as a result of the system as a whole, which justified the fabrications, perhaps even required them.

I still believe that might be the case. And I can even see, from some of the new stories cleargreen is telling at workshops, that some in cleargreen have learned to make up things too. So they know fabrication is at the heart of it, because they're doing it themselves. And yet they aren't in sure possession of whatever state of consciousness would cause one to be sure it was good to do that.

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Re: Greg, Gabi, and excrements
From: Logan
Date: 11/1/99

GregNGabi: "No... you are wrong... Gabi and I found no proof that Carlos was a "bad guy". Just that he died an ordinary death, contrary to Cleargreen's claims."

Wondering, How did you or any one else at SA think Castaneda would die? What was his "sorcerer" death supposed to be like?

Logan

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Re: Greg, Gabi, and excrements
From: greggabi
Date: 11/1/99

Logan asks:

>How did you, or anyone else at SA think >Castaneda would die? What was his "sorcerers" death supposed to be like?

I speak for no one else at SA... only myself.

Carlos told us that he was going to take his body with him and go "boots and all" like don Juan did.

In reality he just got sick and died... failing not only for himself, but failing to take any of his sorcerers party with him.

Didn't you read the books where he describes how a sorcerer dies and how an ordinary man dies?

The claims Carlos made in person were far more explicit than what he wrote in the books.

I believed what he said and was hoping to be there to film, or at least witness them leave together. Instead, Carlos dies... and the rest drive away in new cars.

Greg

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Re: Greg, Gabi, and excrements
From: Logan
Date: 11/1/99

Greg: >Didn't you read the books where he describes how a sorcerer dies and how an ordinary man dies?

Yes.

Greg: >Carlos told us that he was going to take his body with him and go "boots and all" like don Juan did.

What do you think that looks like?

Greg: >In reality he just got sick and died... failing not only for himself, but failing to take any of his sorcerers party with him.

I can see how you could judge him as failing.

Greg: >The claims Carlos made in person were far more explicit than what he wrote in the books.

Did he say that he was going to leave during a seminar or something similiar?

Greg: >I believed what he said and was hoping to be there to film, or at least witness them leave together. Instead, Carlos dies... and the rest drive away in new cars.

How did you imagine you would witness them leaving? Or how did Carlos frame his leaving?

I know he said things about the plumed serpent and spontaneous combustion. But how did you think you would percieve it?

I always thought he would come running out naked at a seminar with sparklers in his butt shouting excitedly "I am ready to Burn! Are you Ready?"

Logan

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Re: Greg, Gabi, and excrements
From: greggabi
Date: 11/2/99

(laughing) Sparklers! I like your humor...

I didn't know what it would be like... I just wanted the chance for a chance to be there if/when it happened...

Greg

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Re: Greg, Gabi, and excrements
From: Logan
Date: 11/2/99

Greg>I didn't know what it would be like... I just wanted the chance for a chance to be there if/when it happened...

Did you ever think that you might have to move your assemblege point to see somebody leap into infinity?

Logan

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Re: Greg, Gabi, and excrements
From: greggabi
Date: 11/2/99

(Logan asks if I ever thought I might have to move my assemblage point to see a leap into infinity.)

Obviously you are asking because you really do not know...

I practiced the disiplines for years with excellent results... and simply applied them in a non-ordinary way by doing what was not allowed.

How do you "think" we were even able to follow Carlos' energetic thread in the first place?

Carlos taught us how... and he never knew that anyone would ever apply the teachings to him.

It was a delightful adventure... just one of many that make up a happy life...

Greg

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Re: Greg, Gabi, and excrements
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/2/99

Carlos described it several times in sunday class. He even said it was happening in mexico city, so he couldn't go there any more.

It started as a little blue spot on his toe, like a small bright flame burning there with no heat. Then it would spread up his body, until the entire thing was consumed and vanished from the blue flame, clothes and all.

He also described once how old Florinda had left.

I believe the shaking pass that Nyei did was supposed to be somehow tied to this but I can't recall how.

Also, he constantly said that maybe he'd take us along when he left, so it wasn't such a stretch to believe there would get to be some witnesses to his departure.

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Re: Greg, Gabi, and excrements
From: Al
Date: 11/3/99

Yes what you did was non linear western thinking. You are very brave. Cause, what if you got caught. You could be arrested by the LAPD for bothering famous people. Carlos was talking alot of garbage and you picked it apart.

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Re: Greg, Gabi, and excrements
From: greggabi
Date: 11/3/99

Hi Al,

It wasn't bravery... it was curiousity that motivated us.

"What if's" can paralyse people into inaction when the moment comes to act, then when the moment passes, the moment to act is also gone.

I checked with the LAPD as to the parameters, and we stayed well within legal limits. You can really only be bothering people if you are close enough to be seen by them, or are interfering in their lives. Carlos never saw us filming, and because he never knew, was never bothered.

Greg

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Re: Greg, Gabi, and excrements
From: AL
Date: 11/3/99

You are very humble to say it wasn't bravery. What if Kylie or one of the other big women saw you. They would try their karate chops on you. You could have been killed or badly injured by Kylie. Then she would take the camera and bust it on your car and tell you never to come back again.Or maybe they would take pictures of you all beat up and put them on the internet. That's wrong-but they would do it.

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Re: Greg, Gabi, and excrements
From: gabi
Date: 11/3/99

Yes, you are right, Al, Kylie was our biggest adversary. She was keen-eyed, strong and determined. She was Carlos' protector. We had exactly the same vision you were describing of her chopping us up with knife-passes. It was very surprising to us that they did not notice us. We would have never gone that far or stayed for so long, if we would have had an inkling that we were interfering in their lives. During those 2 years we only saw one other person attempting to watch Carlos', but he also wanted to be "special" and he approached Kylie in front of Dance Home. Subsequently he was banned from the seminars for a while. If Carlos/Kylie would have known what we were doing, they would have stopped us cold.

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Where are you going Corey ?
From: J. Stender
Date: 11/1/99

Iridium is not one of the hardest substances in existence. It is 6 to 7 on the Mohs hardness scale, which is an exponential scale with diamond as the hardest known substance at 10.

It was good fun to read the new Carol Tiggs stuff ("left finger under the nose") and a lot of the other stuff about inconsistencies in the private lives of "the famous four". But when it cones to proving and disproving something is fishy. You can make this net page appear like a proof that Carlos and all his stuff are fary-tales, and maybe it is. But I like to add acomment on scientific research. F.ex. a very usefull piece of equipment in the natural sciences is a mass-spetrometre. Itīs a thing that can measure ratios of isotopes (different masses of an element). Itīs a fully acknowledge piece of high-tech equipment. It takes a load of measurements on a sample, it could be some 300 measurements. Among those 300 measurements up to 10% can be rejected as outliers. The rest of the measurements consists of a spread that is distributed Gaussian (with a peak at a central value). Often, the data that are not at the central peak scatters to such a degree that they represent the full variation of the known world-wide variation.

If you, out of 270 measurements, choose to look at 20 deliberately selected measurements, you can get whatever result you like.

One of your stated goals with this page is to investigate "other" possibilities to increase awareness. That is what is important, isnīt it ? I mean, you can prove Castaneda a liar, no problem, and someone else can, probably equally convincingly, prove his teachings are straight from the spirit itself. But both will in most cases simply represent a selected part of the data set.

Now, I whole-heartedly appreciate Mr Lawtons posts on esoteric matters (and other things) but in this context I wish Corey would add some more material and thus shift the emphasis. To fulfill the stated goals of the page, a presentation less biased towards lies, sexual escapades and cult crap, would provide the reader with a better chance to make a sober evaluation. I wish there would be more emphasis on the presentation of all the usefull stuff (techniques, tricks and experiences and so forth).

I think you have no real idea about the value the experiences of you guys have to us guys (sons and daughters of poor fishermen from the cold north, a.o.)

So I am not saying that you shouldnīt write about the precise age of Florinda Donners car but just donīt let the Famous Four be some sort of stagnation, and thatīs it with evolution. Though cults are shit and slogans are puke we still have to die, right. And in the meanwhile we can enhance our life experince, right ?

Best Regards Jakob

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Balance
From: J. Stender
Date: 11/4/99

Those are good suggestions. All information about the sunday classes are very interesting. But the point is to get all the fact, for and against, out in the open. To do so it is fair to have more posts that directly tells about methods, the time spend on them amd the experience therefrom.

In order to downplay the role Cleargreen has in this teaching, it would be most usefull to simply make all the stuff available here. Why should they have a patent on something that others have a comparable knowledge about. Just lets get everything out in writing. Then the reader can assses the pros and cons about individual points in the teachings.

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L. Ron Hubbard
From: Anaid
Date: 11/1/99

A few of you from SA have mentioned the writings of L. Ron Hubbard -- I believe Daniel Lawton in particular. He is brought up as someone who also wrote a phenomenal amount of stuff about awareness. But usually you mention Hubbard as an example of someone ELSE who made stuff up. Did Ron Hubbard "make up" what he wrote? In what sense? I mean if you use Hubbards writings to back up statements that don Juan was made up, it's really confusing to me. First of all there is the idea of just pure fabrication, then you have stealing from lesser known literature -- but stealing of ideas that are more or less deemed to be "true", and then you have out and out fiction. But to use the writings of Hubbard to back up your idea that other people were as capable as Castaneda of making up very complex, esoteric systems.....I thought that what Hubbard wrote was "made up", but it was made up from actual experiences that Hubbard had and experiments that Hubbard made. I can't find the specific posts right now, but I believe that what the people were saying was that IF Castaneda "made up" don Juan and everything that happened in all its complexity, can you name another human being that also "made-up" such a system. But isn't it true that Hubbard didn't just "spin a yarn" or make stuff up but wrote from his experiences also?? Sheesh I know this is one of my most un-clear posts but I was actually interested in knowing more about Hubbard as opposed to trying yet again to defend Castaneda. In that light, could you tell me what you know about how Ron Hubbard got his material? Thanks. 'naid.

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Re: too close... for Dan et al.
From: Calixto
Date: 11/1/99

Eidolon:

"Personally, after practicing the magical passes and trying to be on the warriors' way for some years, I actually live a better life than before, although my life before was really alright from the 'normal life' point of view. My body knows for sure that the warriors' way is for real. "

Literally millions of people, from numerous religions and disciplines can and do make similar statements. "I know that Jesus really came into my heart, because I am a much better person than I used to be". etc.

"As others already stated here - the knowledge submitted by Castaneda et al. is far too complex to be the product of imagination or 'construction from other sources'."

If others said it, it must be true? He provided no evidence that the people he wrote about really existed. We have provided a lot of evidence indicating the likelihood that he made it up.

"show me one oeuvre of another author who simply was a lier and a thief (as you characterize Carlos) that possesses this quality. I guess you will have difficulties."

Not a problem. Not only can I do that --- I can do that choosing only from cults I personally have been a member of. :-) The best example I know is L. Ron Hubbard who invented an entire 'history of the universe'. As whacky as it may sound to those who are not indoctrinated, let me assure you, Hubbard's religion, Scientology, has THOUSANDS more followers than Cleargreen, many of whom will argue to the death that Hubbard was a great writer who correctly delineated the actual history of the universe, and discovered the true way to salvation.

"Well, maybe, after all, the problem between Castaneda and his fallen Sunday school disciples is the well known problem of too much proximity."

Maybe you are still grasping at straws. The problem isn't us.

"So I guess that you've been too close to see the truth, all you saw was the trash..."

John Lennon really was an asshole in a lot of ways (I happen to know that's indeed true). So I enjoy his songs sometimes, but I don't *base my life* on his recommendations or his viewpoints. Same with CC. I might enjoy his artfully crafted fiction, and agree with a few of the philosophical points he emphasized, but I'm not about to base my life on his deceptions.

"First, you've felt important, you've been the chosen one's. At workshops, you've been the ones that already knew the passes, that were 'friends' with Carlos and the witches... Then Carlos let you fall to the ground. "

Still trying desperately to make it right in your mind somehow... Cleargreen is even losing their own people, gradually --- but TB's like you, sadly, will be the last to go.

"And none of them could be convinced by your 'facts' and sex stories.... "

Well then, how about Carol's sex stories, can they be convinced by those? (even though they were scripted out for her ...)

Frankly, if they'd been up-front about the sex, it might even have made me *more* interested. :-) But the way they lied about it, and played heap big guru games all around it ... sorry Charlie.

And honey, those aren't "facts", just facts. Look at the picture Greg and Gabi just put up of Florinda walking a feeble Carlos a few steps to his door, taken just a month before he was cremated at a Culver City mortuary. Even while that was taking place, all the TB's were still being told how Tensegrity would keep them young and vital all their lives. Well, look at him --- does he LOOK like someone who is young and vital and about to leap into infinity? Or does he look more like a sick old man who has to be helped across the street? It's obvious.

-C.

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Re: L. Ron Hubbard
From: JimDBB
Date: 11/5/99

Comments have been made about L. Ron Hubbard. I am a former member of his Scientology cult. HIs son, L. Ron Hubbard Jr. aka Ron Dewolfe, stated in interviews that his father concocted most of his stuff when he was high on drugs. Here are some examples.

The very secret scientology OT courses. Scientologists can only take these after they have been thoroughly indoctrinated and have paid a lot of money. On the OT III "Wall of Fire" course. Hubbard reveals that 75 million years ago, a nasty galactic overlord named Xenu (pronounced Zeeenyou) brought billions of people from other planets here. They were dumped into volcanoes and nuked with hydgrogen bombs. The spirits or 'thetans' of these murdered people were then trapped electronically as they left their bodies. These 'Thetans' were then clustered,zapped and implanted with all sorts of perverse stuff...religion , sexual perversion etc. Every human today has clusters of these invisible aliens attached to them and they are called in scientology, Body thetans or BTs. These BTs are the source of all of your troubles and only L. Ron Hubbard's 'Golden technology' can free you from these BTs. It only costs about $360,000 to accomplish this. This is why only a few people like John Travolta are 'Clear' or free of their BTs.

This stuff is very secret. Lower level scientologists know nothing about this and upper level scientologists who are working on their BTs are forbidden to speak about this, even amongst themselves. Hubbard teaches that if unprepared people are exposed to this, they will get pneumonia and die (do I hear any sniffles).

Wait, there is more. This is a prison planet controlled by evil psychiatrists who control the evil earthling psychiatrists and the Martian Implant stations. Every human is programmed at death to return to an Implant Station, usually on Mars but some are on Venus. There they are zapped to forget their past lives and are implanted to start over again. They are packaged in ice cubes, shipped back to earth by flying saucer and dumped in oceans. Then they are on their own to find their way to a hospital to find a new baby body to take over.

Humans are trapped on this cycle lifetime after lifetime and only Hubbard's 'Golden Tech' can save you from this.

There is much more of this insane stuff in L. Ron Hubbard's 'Tech'. But now you will understand the fixed stare and fanaticism from scientologists. They are thoroughly programmed to believe that L. Ron Hubbard is the only hope that they have. Their mission is to 'Clear' this planet and then join Ron in another part of the galaxy and his mission to 'Clear' the galaxy.

Now I'll let you decide. Do you think that Hubbard came up with this stuff when he was high on drugs?

JIMDBB

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Re: L. Ron Hubbard
From: anaid
Date: 11/5/99

i guess i wanted to know if hubbard had stuck to the idea, like castaneda, that the things he wrote about were things that he knew from personal experience - or rather that the things he wrote about happened to him the way that he said they happened --that had not just made them up or read stuff others had written or pieced together a bit from this system and that to come up with his 'scientology'. and i wondered if people who had once been interested in hubbard's stuff and then for whatever reason were disappointed with it, came away feeling that hubbard had just made it all up for the money or fame.

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Re: L. Ron Hubbard
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/6/99

I know one who went all the way to being "clear", whatever that is. He became so angry at the group that he would actually vandalize their centers. When he found those "questionare" fliers in stores he'd fill them out with bogus info and mail them in to get them charged for the postage.

His hatred and anger of scientology were enormous compared to the puny efforts on this page which are directed towards cleargreen.

That's a common phenomena for scientology, every few years you'll hear about some crime involving former scientologist members versus current ones. There was that snake thing, a few beatings, some big lawsuits, etc.

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Re: L. Ron Hubbard
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 11/6/99

What about Carlos' teachings?

This planet is a gigantic chicken coop, run by beings from another dimension, who control our minds by replacing our normal circular brain rythm with a side to side one. They control everying around us, even our movie stars, whom they transplant into another body at death.

These minds live on, giving the feeling of re-incarnation.

At night they lick our energy from our toes, making us unaware and submissive. You can escape this by hiding in a tree, because the fliers can't climb trees. But they can hop over pyramids in mexico, that's another thing.

At birth these fliers chop out a big chunk of a horizontal energy bar that females have. It can only be repaired by having sexual intercourse with Carlos.

Sustained Reaction Archive - Page 5