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Datura From: Bishop Date: 12/21/99
Did any member of Cleargreen's inner circle experiment with psychoactive substances? Was use condoned or opposed by CC? I believe I read in an earlier post that CC had various recipes for the preparation of Datura (jimson weed). It has been years since I used psychoactive substances, and I never used Datura because of it's rumored high mortality rate. Does anyone have any objective info or data on Datura?
I don't have objective info on datura yet can tell you that CC give us some at a party "Theatre of the Ghosts". It was a low dose, just enough for a good buzz, but not to become disoriented or hallucinate. His stance during my time there was not to take any drugs whatesoever.
He claimed he could tell when people were using marijuana because they looked "green". He also told us to stop coffee, sugar, etc. When out at dinner we were each allowed one glass of wine.
In addition to the datura he gave us a second substance that I believe was a peyote tea.
He told me he had prepared this "Sorcerer's Food" himself; the datura from a plant in Florinda's backyard.
There were many women he was sexually involved with dating back to the seventies and most likely before then. He would keep women as mistresses in apratment and hotel rooms, support them, pay for their college education and generally have sex with them when he wanted to. He didn't "save up his energy", he had a very deep conflict with women - he hated that he couldn't live without them and thus hated them and treated them with both kindness and nurturing and with disregard and mindgames, control. Just because he didn't want just a one-night-stand with me doesn't make his treatment okay. He wanted to "collect" me and add me to his "milieu" of women. It's not an easy thing to get someone to give up their life, friends, family, home and join up with a group such as his. It takes a certain facility to provide the right set of circumstance for each individual and he was up for the game.
This guy came on like the most magical sorceric teacher in the world was chosing "me" and proceeded to treat me with both obsession and disregard, praise and criticism knowing what my situation was, and where I'd just come from. He asked me for photos of my mother, maternal grandmother and myself as a baby and child. He became so obsessed with a photo of my mother when she was nineteen (and very fetching) that for a few weeks he couldn't stop talking about her. If she hadn't been dead he would have probably sought her out.
He abused his standing as a teacher and his obvious influence over myself and others who were extremely vulnerable to his every word, breath, glance.
I never had sex with him. Personally, I was not attracted to him in a physical sense. I fell in love with him and would have done practically anything he asked, but was able to side-step the issue of sex. The two things he relentlessly badgered me about were SIDs and insanity. Did I have any "sexual viruses" and was I ever "carried kicking and screaming out of the house". He asked me these questions over and over, so you can imagine what his intentions were.
He has had other women breakdown and has had to pay for one that I know of (he told me about her himself and she was sometimes in class) their expenses when they were institutionalized. He refused to practice safe-sex and thereby was very concerned about pickiing up any diseases from his "harem".
Cara, Thank you for posting that. I sincerely mean that. Your post, to me, actually begins to convey from a woman's point of view what it must have been like to have this man you had admired thru his books suddenly there with you in the flesh and vying for your affection. I think it's because you are speaking honestly and not just saying he was some pig out to "pork" any woman he could get, as someone else recently (and kinda grossly) mentioned. I know Linda says she met Castaneda, but she was never "intimately" involved with him from what I gather. And I know you didn't have sex with him, but I think you are saying you actually fell in love with Carlos Castaneda the man. Cara, this may be hard to answer because of the way you were treated, but, in your gut, when you were alone with him, and he was talking to you, did you get a "gut" sense of whether this man actually believed in what he was doing, or do you think this was something that he only did in order to make himself more able to attract women and make money? Did he seem "real" to you? Do you think it was all a big act, or do you think that there was *something* *real* going on? When you say he was teaching you - I think you said he was - was it about magical things? Or did you sense it was all just "small talk" to be able to try and get you to go to bed with him? Thanks again for your post. diana.
Sorry, but I think that question is silly. If you were in a position where you were getting "intimate" with someone, PRE-sex, or maybe not sure about sex, wouldn't you talk to the person about it? I don't know I guess a lot of people don't TALK about sex at all? Obviously Castaneda was asking Cara these questions about her sex life = whether she was exposed to any viruses, so I would think it would have been natural for a conversation to come up where she asked him if he practiced safe sex. I'd be interested to know if there was some "esoteric" reason that Castaneda gave...for instance people who do "sex magick" say that you can't DO sex magick with a rubber, and it's not even good if the woman takes the pill....Cara says she found out from other women that Castaneda would not have safe sex, but DID he ever talk to you about WHY, or did they ever mention it to you Cara? Thanks. diana.
i know one fellow in my town who tried it ,and despite having been a very well rounded and mellow person, with a history of being exeedingly "normal", began to believe his old teacher from middle school (he was 19 at the time of this incedent) was reading his thoughts. he then climbed into his old teachers window and tried to stab him to death. but hey, he could have been right ey? another fellow from my town took him a dose and wound up in the local psch ward not able to recognize his mother, and was unable to get the freckles on his arms to calm down. but hey, hes not all that bright anyway ,most of the time. if you can spend some time getting rid of any notions of being a human, with a name and occupation and whatnot, and remember what its like to be an indescribable to your self basic organism, and ride the wave of the here and now as it surfs through space time, there is truly no need for such haphazered crapshoots unless you are completly willing to give up all hope of a safe coexistance with a society full of anal people who frown upon people running naked through wal mart chasing an ally if that is what you happen to "see" while exploring the use of such a plant as datura. but hey, whos to say that an ally would have no buisness to attend at walmart? if you listen to the body, it will give you direction on movement that would put you in touch with awesome states of heightened awareness that do not take away your control. no need to go through the extra uncertainty when even more levelheaded approaches will give you plenty enough of that to deal with . but at the same time , i love a brave pioneer. ive personaly found that the more you strip away romantic notions from your expirementing, the more in touch with true infinitous experience you become . to gain the level of seriousness and soberness necessary for a positive use of datura, is damn near impossible within the "tonal of the times" that we are now in. we are severely impregnated with a romantasism virus or something, which can uleash exteme "drama queenish" activity, which henders true growth and knowledge from being manifest. search yourself. im an idiot . daniel
You're taking huge risks to eat that stuff, and for very little reason. Just learn to get silent and you can get even higher than that, with no apparent risk.
On the other hand, the dosage that makes you high isn't far enough from the dosage that can cause a coma, with datura, and the variations between plants as far as strength goes are large enough to bridge the gap from high to coma.
As a kid I spent a lot of time on the Cahuilla indian reservation, possibly the same place Carlos learned about datura. There was an indian guy there who wanted to revive the "old" ways and took to eating datura. He was in a coma for 6 months.
Then, if you succeed in figuring out how to dose yourself, mental illness is also a very possible side effect of datura usage.
Forget that stuff, don't be lazy.
I'd heard about the unseemly side effects of Datura before but I couldn't be sure it wasn't D.A.R.E. propoganda. Like I mentioned earlier, it's been a long time since I dealt with psychoactive substances, and now that I have a modicum of emotional and psychological stability for the first time in my life I'm not about to go tinkering with my Psyche with a sledgehammer-which brings up another point. Over the past year or so while practicing the recapitulation and shutting of the internal dialogue, I've developed some skill as it pertains to silence. But I've experienced some disturbing phenomenae after I've reached silence. Sometimes I get a panicky feeling and a sensation that I'm not breathing right-even though I concentrate on my breathing very well. I also get a buzzing in my ears and a sense of vertigo. This only happens when my eyes are OPEN and I'm practicing some gazing, this never happens during my recap or when I'm just meditating with my eyes closed.
I went through EXACTLY that, during the first 2 years I started to try real hard. Looking back, I believe it would be diagnosed as a "panic attack" by a doctor. I think I agree.
And occasionally, I still have the same thing happen, but when I remember that it's probably a panic attack it goes away quickly.
Wow, you're making things happen!
Bishop, I used to get that panic thing as well. At the beginning, I would get really scared - on some level, I knew that if I started up my internal dialogue again, it would "ground" me and I'd be okay - but I didn't "say" that to myself, and sometimes it would take a while before any words would come back to my mind, is the best way I can explain it. Also, once when I had vacation time that I used to recap, so I was recapping for like six hours in one day, I think I had changed my breathing pattern so much, that when it came time to get up and walk around at a "normal" pace outside, I would actually be sort of "out of breath" at the beginning of walking. I didn't know what it was at first, but since I always ended up breathing normally after five or ten minutes of walking, and felt perfectly healthy, I didn't worry about it that much. But then it would happen again, but only after I had been recapping for an extended period in one sitting- I think it's from the slow controlled breathing and the focus on exhaling, it's like it changes your breathing pattern, and...did you ever notice anything at all like this? diana.
I found out the exact same thing. If one deliberately starts up the internal dialogue, it almost immediately restores your normal consciousness. The panicky feeling and the "buzzing" just sort of dissipitates. Focusing on my breathing, especially while recapping has almost been completely benificial. It's rather mundane, I think this stems from being a naturally tense person and recapping/inner silence were (are) the only NATURAL methods I've used to calm, center and expand myself. I think that ANY breathing/meditation techniques would have worked wonders with me. Being a believer (at one point) gave me the impetus and discipline needed to reach silence/peace. I firmly believe that having that almost religous zeal helped me a great deal, I don't think that I would have done much with ANY path without it, I was to undisciplined. Now that I am in doubt of my own "religion" I have to rely on my own instincts and sense of purpose. It's very ironic.
I'd heard about the unseemly side effects of Datura before but I couldn't be sure it wasn't D.A.R.E. propoganda. Like I mentioned earlier, it's been a long time since I dealt with psychoactive substances, and now that I have a modicum of emotional and psychological stability for the first time in my life I'm not about to go tinkering with my psyche with a sledgehammer-which brings up another point. Over the past year or so while practicing the recapitulation and shutting of the internal dialogue, I've developed some skill as it pertains to silence. But I've experienced some disturbing phenomenae after I've reached silence. Sometimes I get a panicky feeling and a sensation that I'm not breathing right-even though I concentrate on my breathing very well. I also get a buzzing in my ears and a sense of vertigo. This only happens when my eyes are OPEN and I'm practicing some sort of gazing, this never happens during my recap or when I'm just meditating with my eyes closed. Another thing I'd like to mention is that I'm runnning an experiment on dreaming. I've decided to verify some things for myself (in fact, I'd like to verify dreaming itself' for what it's worth) and I would like a little advice. In a post earlier someone said that you could learn dreaming in a few months if you put in an obscene amount of time and energy. Well, I have nothing but time for the next few months, and am willing to put in the effort. So far the only way I can be conscious of being in a dream is if I wake up during a dream and before I fully wake up I let myself slip back into sleep while trying to remain aware. This has worked twice, but both times the sense of being aware I was dreaming was transitory, either I lost that sense and slipped into regular dreaming or I woke up and couldn't get back to sleep. Note that both times were in the morning after sleeping all night. I looked at the notes and techniques page on this site and I was wondering if anyone had anything else to add, especially, how does one remain aware during a dream and how does one GET to dreaming other than the way I just described? I'd really appreciate any info,since I'm a complete novice at dreaming, especially if your experienced with it. I'll keep updating my progress if anyone gives a shit.
Hugs and Kisses, Bishop
>So far the only way I can be conscious of being in a dream is if I wake up during a dream and before I fully wake up I let myself slip back into sleep while trying to remain aware.
That's the best method in the beginning if you find you aren't good at waking up (in my opinion). If you can sleep late so that you dream a lot and wake up a lot, learn to remain still and go back in. For me it only worked one out of 10 times, but since I woke up at least 5 times a day I got dreaming every other day this way. The obscene amount of work comes in because you have to make an effort to do this every time you wake up.
>This has worked twice, but both times the sense of being aware I was dreaming was transitory, either I lost that sense and slipped into regular dreaming or I woke up and couldn't get back to sleep.
That's what happened to me too. I learned that there's a black out period when you go back in, and when you pass through that blackout you forget what you were doing. But the motivation to remember you are dreaming comes up as an "echo" of sorts after about 30 seconds back in the dream, you just have to pay attention to it and not get sucked in to the dream. The hardest part about waking up inside a dream is being motivated to follow through and dump the dream context, which can be quite pleasing.
>, how does one remain aware during a dream and how does one GET to dreaming other than the way I just described?
That's the way. And your remain aware, or extend the dreaming time, by switching dreams. Once you learn to do this, you can "feel" when you need a dream switch. My experience suggests that everytime you switch dreams you get back the amount of time you normally can sustain a single dream. And switching dreams fosters the ability to preserve your determination across a dream change.
>I'd really appreciate any info,since I'm a complete novice at dreaming, especially if your experienced with it. I'll keep updating my progress if anyone gives a shit.
I'm interested. Besides trying to go back in, try to learn to get silent while you lie there until "something different" happens. This might be a total body feeling, visions, a feeling of space, or an outright dream. Attack from both angles. The thing you can't control is waking up inside a dream, but that'll happen more often if you try to get directly in to dreaming by being silent. I guess it produces an obsession that remains. My experience says it will remain for many hours, so even if you have several dreams without finding your hands it could be that later in the night, hours later, you remember, as a result of having tried when you first went to bed.
Later it'll be a breeze. I can get in to dreaming directly from waking anytime I make a serious effort. And when I make a haphazzard effort I get to view a dreaming window for as long as I can stay aware, not necessarily being able to full get "in". Those dreaming windows are very intriguing because they teach you about abstractness. It's from there that you might see what a big fake Carlos was. There's too many directions to go, not just his limited view.
Daniel, I appreciate the info. I've been cutting down on stimulants (caffeine, nicotine) because they DO seem to inhibit dreaming, and they definitely have an impact on silence. Iv'e gotten on Zyban, which is used to quit smoking and I've pretty much given up coffee. I've also tried to keep my stimulation level down (less excitement=deeper silence?). Is there any diet or regimen that fosters/inhibits dreaming, one wouldn't think so. I also read in an earlier post about doing abdominal excersises before sleep.
I used to go crazy looking for things that helped dreaming. If one night I had a headache and took some aspirins with some orange juice, and got dreaming, I added it to my ritual list as a possible aid to dreaming.
But it doesn't really matter. I'd say that as long as you aren't mentally fatigued, meaning too tired mentally to put in the effort, you'll do OK if you work hard. You might be physically fatigued, but as long as you aren't mentally fatigued everything is fine.
Now pre-occupied is worse than mentally fatigued. When you are mentally fatigued you can overcome that by concentrating extra hard for a good burst. But if you are pre-occupied you can't even do that. So any big problems in your life can have a negative impact on dreaming if they occupy your thought process.
Food? Don't overeat before bed. Caffeine doesn't matter to me except that I don't feel tired so it's hard to lay there the required time. But if I'm trying to get dreaming sitting in the chair with my head on the stick the caffeine is a benefit because I'll stay there forever as long as I don't fall asleep. What I'm saying is that if you opened a dreaming window or actually got in to dreaming the caffeine wouldn't hurt anything. Neither does sugar. Too much stomach acid is bad because when the sleep paralysis sets in that can cause more panic.
>>>From my understanding you say they are frauds. If they are frauds then they know all along that no one is going to die anything but completely ordinary death. So it would come as no surprise. So what would be the reason to kill themselves?>>>
>>Being heartbroken that someone whom they depended upon for guidance was gone?
Oh dear, now you're just making it up. Maybe they committed suicide from shame after one of Dan or Corey's really very angry and critical posts...?
With that sort of weak speculation you can read just anything you like into the situation. The disappearance of Florinda and co., if anything, lends credibility to the original plan of the Nagual taking his party with him. These confused notions that CC & co. were at the same time fanatical cultists, deluded losers AND cynical fraudsters appear increasingly to be just S.A. mud-slinging with no real content or coherence, just a lot of bitterness and wounded anger at being so out-of pocket. Witness the sudden excitement, the drooling at the idea of a book, or a mass legal action against Cleargreen! Revenge AND money!!
This is all getting so tragic. S.A. is heading towards a critical mass of self-righteousness and victim mania. You've all been so terribly abused! Soon you'll start recovering memories of special Sunday sessions in which Carlos hypnotised you and then fucked you all up the ass!! While Carol Tiggs pissed on your goony culty faces and sang to Satan!
Take some fucking responsibility for yourselves.
>>>From my understanding you say they are frauds. If they are frauds then they know all along that no one is going to die anything but completely ordinary death. So it would come as no surprise. So what would be the reason to kill themselves?>>>
My previous post:
>>Being heartbroken that someone whom they depended upon for guidance was gone?>>
Voice of Seeing:
>>>>Oh dear, now you're just making it up. Maybe they committed suicide from shame after one of Dan or Corey's really very angry and critical posts...?
With that sort of weak speculation you can read just anything you like into the situation.>>>>
Well, actually to be fair, it is weak to speculate why someone would consider suicide. Who am I to try to enter the emotional space of someone who would consider such a drastic measure? I hope that I made that clear by positing my answer as a question.
However, there are at least two reports of Castaneda talking about suicide. One story I have heard is by having Florinda fly a plane into a mountain. I also believe Dan spoke of a Sunday session in which Castaneda spoke about blowing one’s brains out as an admirable thing to do. Then there is Kylie who spoke of turning to the wall to die if Castaneda did not take her with him.>>>>The disappearance of Florinda and co., if anything, lends credibility to the original plan of the Nagual taking his party with him.>>>>
This does not lend credibility to me of the original plan of Carlos Castaneda to take his "party" with him. Why do you refer to him as the Nagual?
>>>>These confused notions that CC & co. were at the same time fanatical cultists, deluded losers AND cynical fraudsters appear increasingly to be just S.A. mud-slinging with no real content or coherence, just a lot of bitterness and wounded anger at being so out-of pocket. Witness the sudden excitement, the drooling at the idea of a book, or a mass legal action against Cleargreen! Revenge AND money!!>>>>
My original anger had absolutely nothing to do with being personally out-of-pocket. My anger had more to do with the fact that I felt that every "dreaming" or "altered awareness" experience I have had should not have been interpreted through Castanedan terminology. I had been doing so for almost twenty years. I can also assure you would that I would have gladly continued to support Cleargreen financially well into the next Millenium if the facts which Corey have made available had not been accessible to me.
>>>>This is all getting so tragic. S.A. is heading towards a critical mass of self-righteousness and victim mania. You've all been so terribly abused! Soon you'll start recovering memories of special Sunday sessions in which Carlos hypnotised you and then fucked you all up the ass!! While Carol Tiggs pissed on your goony culty faces and sang to Satan!>>>>
Here is a great website on urine therapy: http://utopia.knoware.nl/users/cvdk/urinetherapy/index.html I believe there is useful information for women experiencing menopause.
>>>>Take some fucking responsibility for yourselves.>>>>
One of the ways that I am taking responsibility for myself is by not supporting Cleargreen and writing about how I feel about my experiences with them as well as information which has become available.
In Ontario, last year after I helped in the bookstore, I reached out to embrace one of the "original" Chacmools. Her reaction was to withdraw in what I perceived as a marked uneasiness. I have hugged many of the instructors in a warm embrace many times and have always felt very relaxed in doing so. I did not feel that reaction was warranted and was somewhat concerned about it, but put it off as her having had a bad day or something. Now, I’m concerned that the uneasiness was an indication of a greater underlying problem of emotional instability. Or perhaps she was concerned that she was going to receive some sort of mystical sorceric cootie transmission like ancient practitioners from Mexico City?I’ve written before that despite my disappointments, I care very much about the welfare of those within Cleargreen. That still holds true.
Cleargreen continues to close ranks and circle their wagons, something they must be good at by now. Their incoming phone calls must be a trip. Not counting the SA and SA related calls; they must have been harassed by all kinds of loony people for years. They could put together some great ‘best of?tapes. There are almost 300 ‘looking to form or formed?Tensegrity practice groups worldwide listed on their website now. Cleargreen still conducts workshops, no problem there, but little comment on the last one on Tango/Tigre.Tango/Tigre has become quiet again after booting Ewald. People are probably a little nervous to say anything controversial or even mention SA.
SA continues to flail around in its usual way. A few could pass for rational human beings, but most continue to piss off anyone that comes to this site and dare challenge them. This hateful arrogance is to ‘wake up?the newcomer. The few hardy souls who wade through this indoctrination technique can find some interesting material on dreaming, recap, etc. and some serious personal stories by those who were once close to CC and Co. but most are put off by the sarcasm and bitterness before they get very far. SA has a reputation that precedes it throughout the Castaneda community, enhanced by its founder with his rants on Tigre and then Ixtlan. SA saying its goal is to see the destruction of Cleargreen is not going to set too well with a lot of the people they are trying to ‘reach?It has been stated on this site by one of the more rational members of SA that the only thing that will bring out the honest facts is the inevitable return of one of the witches or the blue scout. It was also stated that it might take them 20 years to realize what they did and come back.
Actually, there are some tapes of wackos calling Cleargreen, which they kept for legal purposes. After Carlos' death they discarded them, and subsequently were recovered. When we need some laughs we play them for entertainment. Carlos kept a tight reign on his women. So I don't think they are about to come back soon, after getting their freedom after 20some years. Freedom and money! Why are you disappointed with SA? What did you expect? A wellrounded alternative to the disappointment of Cleargreen? Please!! My suggestion is to pick and save, pick what is useful for yourself from anywhere and save it. Ha, and maybe that will lead somewhere.
I can't tell you how disgusting I feel you are. How contemptible. how stupid. To brag about picking garbage. To be so arrogant,snide, cute. Your setting yourself up for something awful. You are going to become the garbage you pick. That's how it works. That's where you are going. It isn't an isolated act unrelated to the rest of your life. It's a statement about your nature or at least your desire. You want to become garbage. Why? Tell Corey someone thinks it's an omen about you. Stop talking about it, for your own good. It's horrid.
What you have done is a horrible horrible thing. It no different than rape. Don't do that to people. You have broken into some one else home (I don't care what the law says) and stolen something private they had and abused and used it against them without theyr'e being able to defend themselves. I thought the response of Kylie and Talia was very gentle. Much too gentle. They were right when one of them said you will never get close to us. That is partly what you tried to do. You get more information by asking them directly. It's sneaky, underhanded, beyond cowardly. I just can't believe it...I just can't. It is absolute madness!Frightening!
How did you get the impression we broke into Carlos house to steal his trash? In the United States people put their trashcan out on the street on trashday to be picked up. From that moment on it is available to anybody, including the hordes of poor recyclers. And I rather be called a garbage picker than a polluter. Kylie and Talia were not involved. Do you have trouble reading English? or did you get the information secondhand? Also, if you have not noticed yet: Kylie and Talia disappeared. You can't ask them anything anymore. It seems that people that live far away from the center of the events built their own fantasies fed by feelings and old experiences of their own. I don't believe Carlos was a rape victim (it sounds rather funny). Why do you have to belittle him after his death? As if he was not capable of taking care of his privacy.
Thank you for your response to my post. Gabi writes <<< Why are you disappointed with SA? What did you expect? A wellrounded alternative to the disappointment of Cleargreen? Please!!
Actually SA doesn’t owe any of us anything. They could just fold their tent and go home and we would be left to figure it out on our own individually. This won’t happen of course, mainly because Cleargreen would love it and SA would be admitting defeat. As has been discussed here before, the only way to determine just what CC knew and how he obtained this knowledge, is from one of his long time associates. SA is the best shot so far of finding one of them and getting the full story. But it’s still easy to be disappointed with SA.Gabi also wrote <<< My suggestion is to pick and save, pick what is useful for yourself from anywhere and save it. Ha, and maybe that will lead somewhere >>>
While picking and saving from the Castaneda material, it would still be nice to know what is genuine useful information and what is fabrication. Then again, there are a lot of good things in the works of CC (though they may mean different things to different people) no matter what their origin.
John L. purports to act as spokesperson for "most" SA website readers by opining: >>>> SA continues to flail around in its usual way. A few could pass for rational human beings, but most continue to piss off anyone that comes to this site and dare challenge them. This hateful arrogance is to 'wake up' the newcomer. The few hardy souls who wade through this indoctrination technique can find some interesting material on dreaming, recap, etc. and some serious personal stories by those who were once close to CC and Co. but most are put off by the sarcasm and bitterness before they get very far. SA has a reputation that precedes it throughout the Castaneda community, enhanced by its founder with his rants on Tigre and then Ixtlan. SA saying its goal is to see the destruction of Cleargreen is not going to set too well with a lot of the people they are trying to 'reach'.<<<<
Do you have some kind of "cookie" system going that I don't know about that allows you not only to track the "hits" here, but also to do sophisticated opinion polling of readers of this site? Pretty good trick.
As far as "SA saying its goal is to see the destruction of Cleargreen," I would really appreciate it if you would be honest enough not to put words in the mouth of a non-existent entity. There is no "SA" to say anything. We are all a bunch of individuals, me included. Ain't no organization, no party platform, no litmus test, and *no stinkin' badges.* Some who use this page attack Cleargreen viciously, some just try to nail them on the clear inaccuracies and self-serving obfuscations in their statements. Still others don't expect much from them at all, and don't care much particularly whether they continue or not. [Please see my post below regarding "Compassion for the Remaining Cleargreeners" for further background.]
As far as SA's reputation preceding it, is it so surprising that the fairly challenging material that was first presented here has generated a fair amount of controversy in this little community? Or that a business entity like Cleargreen, which has a long tradition from the Castaneda days of "trashing" those who leave, wouldn't have been working overtime to generate as much dirt and obfuscation as possible about me and others involved with this inquiry? (You don't need to answer that--I've already had reports from many over the last several months who were told the rumors that Cleargreen and other followers tried to spread about myself, Dan and Calixto, aimed at discrediting this effort.) And, yes, all kinds of things have been said about me and others on Tigre and Ixtlan, which are private lists on which I have been barred from responding to a whole host of misrepresentations and outright lies. So what? Is this all really only a matter of good PR to you?
Apparently, regardless of the bad and hostile press, a lot of people interested in this material seem to find their way here and are moved and affected, often for the better, by the material here. Sometimes they share new insights that become part of the ongoing inquiry. Sometimes they just quietly thank me or others who post here for what we have shared.
If you are looking for entertainment and slick presentation, I'm sure there are a lot of places on the Web that would better serve you. On the other hand, if you are looking for one-of-a-kind content about Castaneda, his philosophy, and his apparent effort to start something like a new religion in the last years of his life, then I can't recommend to you a better website than this one. Sorry.
John L. also opined: >>>>It has been stated on this site by one of the more rational members of SA that the only thing that will bring out the honest facts is the inevitable return of one of the witches or the blue scout. It was also stated that it might take them 20 years to realize what they did and come back.<<<<
I hope you don't start holding your breath for this "inevitable return." There is still a very good chance that some or all of those five bought a one-way ticket. On the other hand, if you think that a returning Florinda is going to give you the "honest facts," I suggest you take another look at her chronology on this site. Florinda may have been a lot of things, and I personally loved her, but not even those who loved her would ever characterize her as a consistent source of "honest facts."
Thank you Tom. i never meant to say i let go of my recapping and tensegrity and my dream of freedom. I call intent everyday and smile at it shyly like a little girl when it comes and do my favorite tensegrity passes most of the time to a passionate tango tune.. But, i am the one who shaped my passes into what they are. i do very few of them, but they are me. maybe they were from Howard Lee , or Lujan, i don't know, i don't care. I breathed life into them, i gave birth to them, i sang to them, i came to love them. With every arm lift, i listen, leg shake i became silent so that i can hear what my body is saying to me. it is beautiful when i can feel the gentle breeze on the back of my elbow, or the tiniest hairs of my hands. yes, it is quite exquisite. i watch, listen. My body is my body beautiful, it gives me the most exquisite moments of delight because i am aware of it. The more i become aware of it, the more it speaks to me, pulling me into those worlds i never knew existed.
And i am sure i will never let that go. infinity is somewhere there in my body and not only tensegrity but everything i do with my body is for me a crack between the two worlds..
One of my most favorite tensegrity passes is to run. i love running with such passion. i breathe in and out, i notice where the pain is in my body when i start, then i breathe and caress the pain like one does with one's child when the child is ill. i become silent, aware. and the pain moves away quietly and All of a sudden i notice the colors of the flowers on my path, leaves all different shades of green put an awe into my heart. many times i get weepy as i run, because life has never been so beautiful, colors never so bright, trees never so silent and wise. that to me is infinity. at that moment there is no concern of who i am or where i will go from here but only that the nature looks like a delicate and beautiful toyland for a child like me who lives in dreams of colorful toylands forever.
that, i will never let go. i speak of freedom but i don't know how it feels since we never truly have been free. But, believe me that is the closest i come to it.
we will always dream of it, there is no other way. but at this point,we already past what Cleargreen can teach. we spotted something out there, something which call us with an haunting voice, and that voice is the sum of all our yearnings, of our cravings for home, of our innate love of freedom.
We are warriors, all of us. That will never change. it is just that it is evolving into something else. I sense that clearly,the energy shift is strong,my heart dictates me to be on that path which is evolving because we are dreaming of it.
i have let go of Cleargreen because i couldn't for the life of me sense any life in it anymore. it became a stagnant gray wall everytime i looked at it. That was on their faces, in their voices, on their eyes. Just one second during the workshop, i became aware of that, a wawe of sadness swept through me but i knew i was saying goodbye. And that was it.
i don't believe in victims. we were there because that's where we wanted to be at that particular time and space. Whether Cleargreen will continue or not is not relevant to me right now. All i know is that infinity calls and i gotta run. This path has no stories of allies looking at me through a glass on the water, no Dona Soledads, no Gennaros who swam in the affection of the earth. But then who needs them. No time for stories. They were for when we were children. But, i am sure we can have coyotes like Reyes wants them crying into the night somewhere.
Magic is simple, magic is exquisite, it is everywhere. no tall tales needed. see my eyes, see.
you are right. Sometimes it is good to see it was just that it was time to let go, because our energy moved away to something else. It is as simple as that. i have seen that in so many of my relationships, sometimes it is over and we need to move on, but seems like we need to justify, get angry, blame the other person, whatever. and that is all good, it is part of the process of acqueising one's being. Here as well, there is a part of us who is scared, feels guilty, not sure, i betrayed, where do i go from here, what if they were right , i was wrong, i am gonna miss all that stuff etc. probably most of the time, that's what we are trying to silence. our anger, negativity , trying so hard to prove they were wrong, false etc, is mainly directed to that voice inside us which talks and bothers us and won't shut up. We don't need to shut it up, all we need to do is listen. it is like a child who wants to be heard not to be made wrong, or guilty or invalid. did you ever see children behave that way, and all they really need is our attention, it doesn't matter what it is that they are saying. once we listen, they go back to their play world, all happy and feeling loved.
we will never truly understand the profoundness of our decision. but, give us atleast that much. we are just trying to calm us down.
and that's called letting go. Patience my heart. Patience.
but my dream of freedom what keeps me going and believe me is as strong as yours.
thanks fellow traveler again.
Corey <<< Do you have some kind of "cookie" system going that I don't know about that allows you not only to track the "hits" here, but also to do sophisticated opinion polling of readers of this site? Pretty good trick. >>>
Corey <<<As far as "SA saying its goal is to see the destruction of Cleargreen" I would really appreciate it if you would be honest enough not to put words in the mouth of a non-existent entity. There is no "SA" to say anything. We are all a bunch of individuals, me included. Ain't no organization, no party platform, no litmus test, and *no stinkin' badges.* Some who use this page attack Cleargreen viciously, some just try to nail them on the clear inaccuracies and self-serving obfuscations in their statements. Still others don't expect much from them at all, and don't care much particularly whether they continue or not. [Please see my post below regarding "Compassion for the Remaining Cleargreeners" for further background.] >>>You are right. My mistake." SA saying its goal is to see the destruction of Cleargreen" should be "some members of SA saying their goal is to see the destruction of Cleargreen"Corey <<<As far as SA's reputation preceding it, is it so surprising that the fairly challenging material that was first presented here has generated a fair amount of controversy in this little community? Or that a business entity like Cleargreen, which has a long tradition from the Castaneda days of "trashing" those who leave, wouldn't have been working overtime to generate as much dirt and obfuscation as possible about me and others involved with this inquiry? (You don't need to answer that--I've already had reports from many over the last several months who were told the rumors that Cleargreen and other followers tried to spread about myself, Dan and Calixto, aimed at discrediting this effort.) And, yes, all kinds of things have been said about me and others on Tigre and Ixtlan, which are private lists on which I have been barred from responding to a whole host of misrepresentations and outright lies. So what? Is this all really only a matter of good PR to you? >>>
For what you are trying to accomplish PR is important. Maybe your attitude is changing though. "Compassion for the Remaining Cleargreeners" sounds like a start.
Exactly! His lecture series at the Phoenix Bookstore in Los Angeles (his stated purpose was to "repay" the owner of the bookstore as this is where he reunited w/ Carol after her "disappearance" of 10 years)was a hunting ground for "special" women who might fit into their "configuration".
He had already found me and another woman (that he shortly dumped when he saw she wasn't malleable enough)at the private lecture. At the week-long series he found two other women. One was the one who left just before "jumping" and clued me into his game, the other stayed for a long time and CC managed to separate her from her husband of 23 years.
He loved getting us to downplay our looks by cutting off our hair stopping the use of makeup and wearing dowdy clothing. He was such a freak he could not handle women coming to class with sleeveless shirts or tops that did not hang down below crotch level. He managed to turn the women into "little boys" with whom he could have an incestuous father/son relationship which makes me wonder about his own sexuality.
Cara, You said Carlos was in touch with you every night for months,talking with you about "everythng and nothing", had charts done for you, taught you privately, and yet he did not FORCE you to have sex with him. Others have written that Carlos went all out to make workshops and lectures wonderful things! I forgot to ask Dan about something he wrote about "otters" "he brought" turning into "pointed cones" -- but it led me to believe that Carlos was not just showing up at these events, checking out the room for a minute to see if any cuties had walked into his trap, asking for one of his "roadies" to send the girl up to his hotel room, and then saying "see you around sweetheart". Do you think Carlos WAS LOOKING FOR SOMETHING besides his next fuck or not? Was he a total phoney fraud, or did he seem to you on a gut level, to BELIEVE in what he was trying to do?? I'm not saying there wasn't ANY aspect of "lust" involved in his pursuits, but is that really ALL you thought was going on??diana.
Diana, please listen (read) carefully to avoid projecting your own ideas and images onto what I am saying. whoever came up with the "rock star/groupie" trope has misled those reading this.
I never openly spoke with CC about sex because I found it very uncomfortable to broach the subject with him and I didn't bring it up because i did not want to even get close to the idea of having sex with him so I avoided that subject with him.
I wanted him to be my teacher and he originally approached me as such. When he started talking about viruses and told me to "zip up my baby thing" I thought he was referring to being celibate so I could use my energy for something "more interesting" than the drama of interpersonal intimate relationships that they swore they abhorred. The constant quesioning about SIDs did raise my suspicion that he might be interested in me for sex, that and the "baby thing" command.
I never saw him as a guy out for a one night stand. Remember, he was a "Latin Lover" - he liked to court, seduce, tease. He liked to collect women, play with them, whether mentally, emotionally, sexually, physically and see where they could/would fit into his little group. If they didn't please him by obeying, entertaining him or whatever else he expected he dumped them when it was no longer convenient to have them around. Sex as power, not a lust-thing, is what I am talking about. Step back and try to see the bigger picture instead of focussing on the minutia of the information you are receiving.
His agenda was more complex than "just wanting to get laid", being "a phony or for real", etc.
If you do decided to keep up with your reading and keep posting here and are still interested in CC and what his motivations were with the group he organized and constantly re-adjusted then read some of the information that has been written on cults and cult leaders. The SA reading list has enough to get you started. This will explain much better than I ever could the ambvuiguity and complexity of such a grop and the leader who organized it.
I was completely a TB when I first met him, thrilled that I was finally being "seen" for the "special being I am", but having an inquisitive mind (for which I was chastised by CC on many occasions)I began to see that they were not operating along the lines that their books defined. There was another agenda occurring and it had to do with personality and power, secrets and lies, manipulation and mind control.
It is true for me that any group work of an energetic sort does bring results and bonding on many levels for those participating. I was too needy and became too dependent on them and my fantasy-like expectations to be able to leave when I saw it was a case of the "Emperor has new/no clothes" - so no, I do not believe there was a Don Juan, or that they were "magical beings" - they were ordinary people who created a world for themselves that they enjoy living in.
>>>He had already found me and another woman (that he shortly dumped when he saw she wasn't malleable enough)at the private lecture. At the week-long series he found two other women. One was the one who left just before "jumping" and clued me into his game,>>>
What is the reference to "jumping" about? The other woman was not "malleable" enough for what? What reason did you have to be jealous of other women if you were not making love with Castaneda? Why was it abusive of him to you that he would see other women for sex if you were not having sex with him?
Did he ever give a reason why he wanted the women to dress the way you stated in your post? Did you and these other women that told you they were having sex with him get together and gossip about him? Did they tell you what it was like to have sex with "the nagual"?
You call him a "freak" and seem to vacillate between admiration, love and hate. What did you consider the most abusive thing he did to you?
"Jumping" is a term he used with me and others which referred to completely joining them, leaving your old life, name, friends, belongings, behind and with only belief in their configuration, join them and their family exclusively. this turned out different for different people. I heard of several women who were set up in an apartment and left there with no phone, car, etc. to wait for him to come over and tell them what was next. Some people like Nyei and Reni & Kylie left their old lives behind and became worker bees for CC & Co.some went along with the program and some didn't and were kicked out. they could change your rank, name, serial number or kick you out on a whim.
the woman who was not malleable enough did not follow his directions. she and I exchanged phone numbers at her initiation because she realized we were both being "courted" by him. she told me what he told her in phone conversations, similar to what he told me. She seemed amused, but not particularly "hooked" as I was. she didn't follow instruction well, for example she showed up at class wearing the "uniform" we were told to wear, but later took off her top to reveal a leotard underneath. This exposed her arms, back, neck, and you should have heard the silent gasp in the room. he told her shortly after not to wear such outfits - that they were not acceptable.
when did I say I was jealous of other women? jealousy and competition between women does not require sex to exist.
I thought he was not having sex, because he spoke that way about it - none of us were supposed to be having sex. that was his line. My conflict with this was that he was definitly "sniffing around" my tail, yet it was all so vague. I think he wasn't sure if I would be right for them because I was independent, and very inquisitive. he was obsessed with me for periods on andn off, depending upon whether I was on his "shit list" or not. There was no solid line to this.
I didn't know he was having sex until after I left and spoke with people who knew of his past deeds and who knew Kylie, & Reni before they met CC. I later met with others who have direct knowledge of his sexual antics and activities. I was really shocked that he was having sex with all the women, yet after my initial surprise I saw that it fits into the pattern of cult leader all too well. So only after I left was I informed of such goings on. The women in the group never talked about anything - the code of silence was tight.
I do not hate CC and never have. I had an extreme amount of anger for his treatment of me when I had a breakdown and finally had to take Wellbutrin for 6 months so that I could function again, get a job, be able to sleep throug the night without nightmare and insomnia, become free from the paranoia that haunted me, socialize and interact with others without breaking down in tears. The most abusive thing he did to me was to elevate me, then, without notice or discussion decide that I was to blame for "P" leaving. I had nothing to do with it, yet was blamed without explanation for some horrible travesty. This resulted in group ostracization, being "demoted" to the bottom of the heap. This type of treatment is ignorant and mean spirited. No one deserves this. It really destroyed me as I was in a very delicate condition as it was. It drove me into a horrible state of depression leading to a serious consideration of suicide. It took years to find my way out of. Maybe that's what happened to Carol when she was gone those ten years....
Thank you for your post.
Without drugs I would have never had a chance to changed. ( I'm NOT pro drugs, it's just fact.) Ive had three bad trips that have taken me along time to get rid of, you know, chaotic side effects on my psyche. But in the end they actually made me stronger, less prone to indulge in insanity like I did when it was happening.
Another thing is that they are the things that truely "broke me". they created a force that makes me pause in my life and evaluate, instead of just being full of my world intill I die, wich is what happens to most people. We never stop talking from they day we learn, and there for never examine any other way of viewing things. It's trully amazing to pause, set straight, and continue. It gives you a chance to see mystery, other trully amazed ways of looking at the world. For me, I have found the ultimate. There is nothing else than explloring. I am full.
Dan, A lot of times you and others who were "there" seem to forget that many of us were NOT there! In a post to me, you wrote something about how Carlos "had brought" "otters" and they went up and turned into "pointed cones"...I wasn't sure exactly what you were saying! You *have* said that Carlos tried over and over again to show you "the magic" or some magic, but you seem to feel it never worked. Instead of all the sarcasm and character assassination, I, for one, wouldn't mind taking a break from it for a bit and hearing about some of the things Carlos actually DID to try and get you people to be able to "see" or whatever - did I read you wrong, or did he actually go thru the trouble of somehow bringing some OTTERS to class or of taking the class to some otters or what!?? What was that reference to, and were there any other "events" you could write about? Thanks. diana.
The 2 otters are 2 of the girls, 2 he took in at the same time. As was usual, shortly after taking them in he made up some myths for them as a reward. I believe these reward myths were for having submitted to sex, but we won't know for sure until they come out.
But he did promise over and over to bring Taisha's energetic pigeon to class. I believe that he indicated at one point that he had in fact brought it, but no one saw it.
He also tried to get us to see a brown ball of energy, the purported dead soul of that girl that he accused of being a hooker who was murdered. He wanted us to watch in the mirror, he though we'd get a glimpse that way. He grabbed Leigh when he got too near the water cooler, saying that the being was over there.
Now I may be getting my brown ball confused with the white crotch starer woman. Maybe someone else is sure about that one. The white crotch starer women started to plague him just about the time he had serious blood sugar problems. They deffinately brought her to class many times, but no one ever saw her.
There were some concrete techniques for seeing inorganic beings, probably about 10. As we did these, he encouraged us to use our peripheral vision to try to detect the inorganic beings. No one reported seeing inorganic beings at the time, although these days I wouldn't be surprised if people started to revise that tale, especially the people recently added to cleargreen.
He tried to manifest an object by cupping his hand over his other hand, rubbing it, then lifting it off. But it didn't work, and he said he wouldn't try that again.
He was going to teach us to "trap" a flier, he gave us lots of prepartory techniques, probably about 3 weeks worth, but that was when he got ill and the classes became infrequent, eventually stopping. When someone tried to revive this technique in our private practice, outside his teachings, cleargreen made it known that they disapproved strongly.
There's other instances, but nothing successful. Success for me would be if the predicted result happened.
Another no name Cleargreener writes:
*Clean up your trash?? Are you serious? Why you didnt'show Carlos the pictures you took when he was still alive? Why would his feelings about pictures of himself change after he's dead??*
Just how in the hell can you claim to know what people feel after they are dead?
(no name Cleargreener continues...) *That's crazy! It's like if a martial arts teacher shows you secret techniques to kill someone who would attack you and you turn around and thank the teacher by killing him!*
Imagine a Nagual... a powerful sorcerer, the culmination of a whole lineage of sorcerers, who had the personal tutleage of don Juan, who had the energy to fly to unknown dangerous worlds,who interacted with all sorts of beings, who expanded the very limits of perception, who had the most incredible and dangerous experiences, who had been practicing his discipline for thirty years...
...killed by a picture.
What fragile pathetically weak victim cowards sorcerers must be... if they can be killed by a mere picture.
(no name finally shouts...) "Ridiculous!"
Yes... you are.
My beloved brethren!
I'm just a hard-shel..er, sell Bapt-er, nagualist preacher, of whom you've no doubt heard afore. And I'm here to preach to you, the straight and naaaaaaarrrrrrrrooooooooowww path that leads from a life of vanit-er, self-importance, to the gates of Jerusa-er, infinity.
Now, brethren (and sisteren), today's text is found in the last chapter of Timothy-Tit-er Tales of Power. And when you find it. You will find in it. These words...
"And they shall gnaw a file, and flee to the mountains of Hepsodam, where the lio-er, jagyoowar roar-ed and the whangdoodle mourn-ed for its first born."
Now bretheren (and sisteren), the text states "They shall gnaw a file."
Now...you got your single-file, profile, double-file, flat-file, rat-tail file, but it ain't none a them kind of files 'cause it's a figger a speech and it means goin' out and getting Euchered-er, it means honkin down some little smoke.
"and they shall gnaw a file, and flee to the mountains of Hepsodam, where the jagyoowar roar-ed and the whangdoodle mourn-ed for its first-born."
Now bretheren (and sisteren), the text goes on to say "and flee to the mountains of Hepsodam."
Now bretheren (and sisteren) you've heard a Hoover Dam, Amsterdam, Rotterdam... But bretheren (and sisteren) I'm reminded of a man whom the lor-er, the Eagle blessed with much Real Estate and many whatchyacall "Blue Chips". And bretheren (and sisteren) this man was stingy and selfish and thought more of his family and his children's education and such than he did of the Chur-er, the nagual's party. And bretheren when it came time to attend workshops and buy the foam wheels and them there teflon balls, the man listened to the voices of the flyers and kept his evil money in his own pocket. And bretheren (and sisteren) one day the spirit turned away from that man. And he lost his family, his possessions, his money....In no time atall, that man was just plain not worth a damn....
"and they shall gnaw a file, and flee to the mountains of Hepsodam, where the jagyoowar roar-ed and the whangdoodle mourn-ed for its first-born."
Now bretheren (and sisteren) a hard she-er sell nagualist ain't like them there zennists, what thinks they can cross over the river Jord-er, of infinity by sittin' on their cushions. No sir. And he ain't like them new agey Yogey types, what thinks they can levertate acrosst. No sir. A hard shell Bapt-er, nagualist can be likened unto a man... WHAT HITCHES UP HIS BRITCHES AND WAAAAAAAAADDDDDEEEEEEEESSSSSS ACROSST!!!!
The time has come, friends, to take a stand. All you hard shell Bapt-er, nagualists....SHELL OUT!
I feel I need to reiterate my thanks to this site for the info it has provided. If it wasn't for this site I would be wasting precious time on a mirage. Many of us were simply seekers, people obsessed with finding meaning in this life, this world. And for a while I thought I found it, now those of us simply seeking a higher explanation for things are back at square one. I will not claim I invested as much as those that were closest to cc, But I did invest enough to feel hurt, embarrassed, and in need of answers. I did gain a lot from my experience, so my anger and dissillusion is mitigated. My priorities and beliefs have come more into focus. CC gave me the belief and desire that evolving, and expanding awareness, and living on the sublime edge of life should be our passion, our direction. And I walk away from all the dogma with those tenents still intact. For whatever he was I'll thank CC for that much at least. But now I have this site to thank for REAL freedom, now I know I am truly alone in this universe, but strong enough to stand on my own.
If someone joins a cult as you have described wouldn't you say they had problems before they joined the cult? Wouldn't you say that whatever those problems were, they ought to be addressed first and foremost. Is it the cult membership that causes all the problems or does it just play into existing problems. If a person leaves a cult and does not address their reasons for entering, wouldn't they be in the same position they were before they entered the cult? What leads a person to join a cult as you have described.
Wouldn't there be a set of pre-existing psychological problems?
What would you suggest might be your own particular psychological reasons for joining this cult as you have described it. Would you be willing to share your strenghts and weaknesses with others so they might gain insight by using yourself as an example of how you, a human like every one of us got involved. I mean a large part of your inquiry seems to be about the effect of this "cult". Why not offer yourself up for examination. A cold, honest objective examination as best as you can and are able would be greatly appreciated. In this way maybe you would show leadership. Making it easier for other people to do the same.
Just a suggestion.
He was the first one to raise his hand and say, God, I don't believe in you anymore. In a world where the believers were shunned, stoned, and condemned to hell for eternity. Your shot is too cheap. You don't even know Corey.
We dreamt a dream with Carlos. We gave all we got. Didn't you ever ache for freedom. We did. We all believed that there had to be more to our meek existence, more to being a man, a woman. So, shoot us. We took a chance, we did. We believed, we tried, we fell. Deceits by the right, deceits by the left. Corey is angry. Most of us are.
I have many friends who are still practitioners. i would never tell them what to do, or what to believe. Eachone of us is entitled to choose where we want to be and how we want to get there. But, i care about them so much. Corey left so many friends behind. Fragile personalities, beautiful souls. He is angry at this monster called ClearGreen.. Some of these people he left behind, he really cares about. He told me last night he was thinking of closing down the website because it was hurting his friends he left behind. i urged him not to. This place have been a home to me when i realized what the ugly truth was and believe me, i realized it all on my own. I came to this group and found nothing but kindness and understanding for my process. if it wasn't for them, i am sure i would be into hard depression, popping 50mg prozac everyday just to survive.
Corey is on the front line. He is the one who gets attacked, he is the one every one blames.
He is a kind soul, such sensitivity, such honesty to himself before anyone else, such gentleness. i think i would have been alot tougher than him. but, Corey digs deep into his soul everyday to discover the truth. I have seen him try so hard to let go of his anger,to forgive. Corey, Just enjoy it. Enjoy your anger. yell, scream, let the world know you are angry. The castenada group were master manipulators and liers and abusers. Yell it to the world, let it be known to the trees, to the stars, to the moon. Carlos and Company were fakes. They lacked the most basic human decency. They were abusive, they were cowards in dealing with other humans.
So what, He is angry. We all are. Darn right we will get angry and yell and scream. Most of us gave years out of our lives to deceit and lies. Darn right it feels good to yell, scream and threaten. Corey will do that and so will i , so will hundreds of other people i know. didn't you ever hear. That's part of letting go.
go ahead, sit there and take cheap shots at someone you don't even know.
JG asked: >>>>If someone joins a cult as you have described wouldn't you say they had problems before they joined the cult? . . . . Wouldn't there be a set of pre-existing psychological problems? <<<<
A number of people who join cults are troubled, but that doesn't characterize everyone who gets involved with these groups. Some are merely looking for answers to and meet up with powerful people who claim to have those answers. The more sophisiticated of the pathological personalities who usually head such groups have many ways of manipulating and wearing down even healthy people, for a time at least. Those who get deeply involved, despite lots of warning signs, with such a person, may have more "problems" that they are seeking to bury by giving control of their lives over to someone else. Each situation and level of involvement really needs to be looked at in terms of its particular facts, IMO.
BTW, most people know very little about cults before becoming part of one, so a big part of the healing process involves education as to the nature of authoritarian-dominated groups.
Here's another little excerpt from *Captive Hearts, Captive Minds* that bears on your question: "Is there a certain type of person who is more likely to join a cult? No. Individual vulnerability factors matter much more than personality type. 'Everyone is influenced and persuaded daily in various ways,' writes Margaret Singer, 'but the vulnerability to influence varies. The ability to fend off persuaders is reduced when one is rushed, stressed, uncertain, lonely, indifferent, uninformed, distracted, or fatigued . . . . Also affecting vulnerability are the status and power of the persuader . . . No one type of person is prone to become involved with cults. About two-thirds of those studied have been normal young persons induced to join groups in periods of personal crisis, [such as] broken romance or failures to get the job or college of their choice. Vulnerable, the young person affiliates with a cult offering promises of unconditional love, new mental powers, and social utopia. Since modern cults are persistent and often deceptive in their recruiting, many prospective group members have no accurate knowledge of the cult and almost no understanding of what eventually will be expected of them as long-term members.' . . . . While we are at it, let's shatter another myth: people who join cults are *not* stupid, weird, crazy, or neurotic. Most cult members are of above average intelligence, well-adjusted, adaptable, and perhaps a bit idealistic. In relatively few cases does the person have a history of a preexisting mental disorder."
JG further asks Bishop: >>>> What would you suggest might be your own particular psychological reasons for joining this cult as you have described it. Would you be willing to share your strenghts and weaknesses with others so they might gain insight by using yourself as an example of how you, a human like every one of us got involved. I mean a large part of your inquiry seems to be about the effect of this "cult". Why not offer yourself up for examination. A cold, honest objective examination as best as you can and are able would be greatly appreciated. In this way maybe you would show leadership. Making it easier for other people to do the same.<<<<
For the reasons set forth above, I don't think Bishop needs to give anyone an accounting of his "strengths and weaknesses with others" to give us an insight as to how one can be affected and influenced by a group or a message of the kind that Castaneda created. But FWIW, I think Bishop's posts to date are already among the most honest, moving and soul-searching on this site.
I was asking you, Corey, those questions and was asking you to perhaps share with other people what it is about you that led you into what you have identified as a cult. I guess I posted it incorrectly to Bishop. I'm not sure who Bishop is or what he wrote.
But why do you give your opinion about what Bishop should do about the question of expressing what it is about you (him?) that led him to join what you call a cult. And if you think he does not need to answer you must not want to answer. You are very free to speculate about other people, placing them in the worst possible light when they have (in Castaneda's case) no possibility of responding. Yet you who complain to others sarcastically about not being open and identifiable yet you continuously refuse to talk about your problem of having participated with what you call a group of emotionally disturbed, sexually perverse, abusive people. If that is what happened then we cannot deny you were a participant. You participated with them in emotionally disturbed, sexually perverse and abusive acts either directly or indirectly. When Carlos abused someone you participated by not protesting. When Carlos stated things that you say were insane you participated and agreed with him and encouraged him by acquiescing or remaining silent to his statements. When you were hearing of sexual activities that you now say were reprehensible you participated and encouraged those activities by not protesting.
Margaret Singer Cult proclaimed cult expert by psychology today and Corey said:
*While we are at it, let's shatter another myth: people who join cults are *not* stupid, weird, crazy, or neurotic. Most cult members are of above average Intelligence, well adjusted, adaptable, and perhaps a bit idealistic. In relatively few cases does the person have a history of a preexisting mental disorder." *
I think that is all wrong. It's really bad. A bad pop psychologist. And these studies mean nothing in psychology. There is nothing objective about them. Psychology is not science. So you can't be an expert and anybody’s opinion is fair game. I'll bet there are studies that state the exact opposite and others that state something else alltogether different.Anyway, I don't agree with much of your analysis. It could be that it fits. The explanation that takes you off the hook.
"Hey, I was just a normal well adjusted person, a little idealistic maybe, I'll grant you that- but then this Carlos person came along and got me all screwed up. But now I'm ok again now that I found out what he was doing."
i wanted to shed some light into this very difficult question by talking about my own experience with a cult.
i was 17 , in college and visiting newyork on my xmas break. i was walking around in my own pace,staring at things like a tourist does and quite enjoying myself frankly.
all of a sudden, i noticed this most good looking guy i have ever seen looking at me. i was about to pee into my pants, i got so excited just looking at him. he was so gorgeous, i thought there must be something wrong with him. no way he could be interested in me, still i managed to stick my breasts out as much as i could and swish my ass around as i practiced in front of the mirror for hours, i gave him one of my squinted eye looks(which i thought at the time to be quite seducing), and my God, i though it worked. He is walking towards me. is he really. Yes, and the next second he was next to me, this God of beauty and sex appeal actually said hi.
i would have followed him anywhere. i wanted to touch him, kiss him, make love to him passionately, i wanted to smell his body, smell his armpits, oh god, i wanted to make him mine oo mine.
so, i followed him to a building full of smiling people. They all smiled at me and told me they loved me. and next i was peeling potatoes in a kitchen six hours at a time and was taking a course to be saved by the second Christ. Sun Yung Moon. i didn't even know the guy. i remember first time they showed us a video of him, i said oh, look at this bold, fat guy and i laughed. There was such a quiet in the room that a pin drop would have been heard. But, they hid their anger too well and smiled at me like i was to be forgiven being ignorant and an idiot.
so, i peeled potatoes and attended the class. I never understood so much what the big deal was about, but i loved it there. It was my gorgeous God who was teaching the class and since he was my sponsor, i got to have his private attention, oh God i lived for that.
he would eat with me alone as part of the program to answer my questions,my doubts etc. i never remember what i said but i would just get wet looking at the guy, the sexual energy reeking out of my 17 yr old body was so much that he started responding. I don't know at this point who was teaching who. i knew i had him. we snuck into a cheap motel in Brooklyn on a sunday afternoon and i tell you i still can't recapulate the passion there was in that room that day.
next they sent me to a fundraising team in Queens. we lived all together about 15 of us in a big house. we woke up early in the morning and prayed, had our breakfast cooked by the house sisters and got into a van and were dropped in different sections of newyork. i got dropped in the village and Harlem alot. i totally enjoyed the experience. i had quiet a knack for playing the innocent little catholic girl selling candy to fundraise for school play, it appealed to men immensely and while they try to take a peek under my skirt as i deliberately bent down just before they made their decision. i never sold one box of candy,but always 5, 10 boxes at a time. i remember grossing $500 dollars on a maybe 4 hours work on a given day. of course, i didn't work more than that since i managed to seduce my group leader who would come and pick me up and take me to one of those motels where one pays by the hour and there is a mirror on the ceiling. He would cry as he screwed me.He felt so guilty. soon we were found out, and i am ashamed to say they kicked me out of the church. they sent him to Korea since sex was totally forbidden and not easily forgiven.
just before i left, he managed to pass me money to go back home to Georgia, instead i went to Montreal for a week and had a mighty good time i might add.
my hormones got me into the church yet at the same token my hormones saved me from it. I was too turned on by the good looking guys whose sexual energy was so repressed that they couldn't help appreciating my openly reeking sexuality.
so, for me it was the wanting of a man's arms (or dick, whatever you want to call it). This was a trick they used to get the recruits. very good looking guys after girls like me and the pretty sisters after the guys. Imagine someone who never even had that much attention from any woman before. and this sister approaches and look s into your eyes, listens to your every word and makes you think you are special. i can easily see how that worked so well.
i remember moon saying once in a sunday lecture at mt.vernon, given at his 100acre palace that we should be ready to kill our parents when he said the word. i was only 17 at the time, granted had too many hormones working on my behalf to see anything clearly, but my god, even so, i realized this guy was a wackoo.
the rest (especially the Germans) were pious, hardcore and devoted. they would die for him and kill their parents for him.
so, i hope this helps.
That's a very angry but more importantly mean candy coated post on your part.
You are saying have compassion and then making nasty allusions which reveal only your hatred toward these people. When you refer to "we" you make the grand assumption that there is a consensus. You are delusional and certainly not capable of compassion. It's just a word to you. You always want it both ways.
"The leading expert in the world"? Who are you to say this? There are no experts-that's a media word. No one masters anything, not in a real changing world. You point to a Pop psychology magazine that resembles more of a comic book of popular trendy thinking than anything else. You don't know what "mental illness" is. And you don't know that psychology is nothing more than an art when it comes to treatment -to application.
Our human problem is that we don't really understand much about ourselves, that's why nothing changes it just shifts and we imagine we change with our use of language.
You are a user of people and you are very amibitious and not very intelligent. Much worse than anything Castaneda might have been. You offer nothing but repudiation and banality.
Jeeez Corey, stop to breathe every now and again! is that the script for the Life of Brian or what? so, you managed to write the second bible like a true God and how nice that you should do it just in time for Christmas.
Except you still miss a few major points, which is surprising considering how much you actually wrote.
Some people not only dont give a fuck for the rational explanations that we have been force fed since birth, but they also dont get duped by "the world's leading expert on the psychological dynamics of cults and "deprogramming":" get in line with your way of thinking or else, right? who are YOU trying to program?
Is anyone falling for this shit , really?
what a load of tripe! please, We have our own minds. Go silence your mind and discard the years of training that has duped you into thinking that the Social world, is the be all and end all for everyone. You got fooled, apparently but not everyone else did. And I dont mean by Carlos. Carlos is dead, Cleargreen is dying, the witches are gone the era is ended. The power has shifted and just coz you lot in LA or wherever you are, no longer hold the mantle of power, it doesnt mean it is gone. Maybe it just changed location and you are too stuck in your ways to see it. You missed the boat, you lost the race, game over.
this isnt for you Corey, this is for those who can see beyond the Social stamp and fear imprinted in our sheep-like minds, you dont want to listen anymore, you made that clear.
If anyone is the slightest bit interested, the road to freedom is still an option, and these old has-beens have lost the plot and banded together to die of embarrasment.
rationalise my dreams mutherfuckers, tell me how they make sense in the linear world. rationalise, life and death and the cosmos, take it to court and sue it for existing without explanation. explain why i see strange energy at night and it approaches me, is it because I am duped by my mind? explain why voodoo works and dead people come back. explain why i will die and tell me why should i.
what a fucking sad farce. this is just pimping for the flyers.
please Corey, we are all dying, i dont mean to insult you but what you say gives no one anything against what we already know. Goddamn it, give me hope for Christmas not a fucking dead foul.
If you have any problems with what I say, feel free to comment to your maker when you meet him/ it. no one will give a shit for your reasoning out there or that Carlos lied and died.
fucking wake up.
D. for Dragon
p.s. Happy Xmas to you too.
"rationalise my dreams mutherfuckers, tell me how they make sense in the linear world. rationalise, life and death and the cosmos, take it to court and sue it for existing without explanation. explain why i see strange energy at night and it approaches me, is it because I am duped by my mind? explain why voodoo works and dead people come back. explain why i will die and tell me why should i."
I understand that you don't give a fig for rationality because (a) you're on the path to freedom, at least that's your Christmas hope and (b) you think it's society's propaganda.
But some of those tools (language, reason) do allow you to post your highly enlightening discourse to this forum. So given that you can't criticize reason without soliciting reason (reason is a whore and will work for anyone), I submit the following for your consideration.
The fallacy of argumentum ad hominem
The person presenting an argument is attacked instead of the argument itself. This takes many forms. For example, the person's character, nationality or religion may be attacked. Alternatively, it may be pointed out that a person stands to gain from a favorable outcome. Or, finally, a person may be attacked by association, or by the company he keeps.
Clearly people have motivations for everything they do. But in principle, those motivations don't weigh one way or the other on the truth or falsity of their assertions. They may weigh on how much faith one is willing to place in their assertions, but the truth or falsity of those assertions stand or fall on their own.
Before you respond that this is social conditioning talking, I submit your own words:
"If anyone is the slightest bit interested, the road to freedom is still an option, and these old has-beens have lost the plot and banded together to die of embarrasment."
I submit that this is a claim that a set of circumstances actually obtains in the world. Now, you can claim that the SA bunch don't see it because of the reasons you gave, but that really doesn't address the question of whether or not there is a genuine "road to freedom" based on Castaneda's, er, teachings.
So I submit that you ARE soliciting reason, even though you seem to want to shift focus away from the real question by bringing up the character of Corey or whoever. You might say that the same thing is occurring on this web site, that people are "assassinating" Castaneda's character rather than focusing on the issues. But I would argue that Castaneda's character is precisely one of the central issues because he claimed to be The Nagual (the human embodiment of the gateway to the infinite) and prescribed behavior to others.
It's a point we might debate, but I don't think it's a point that can be swept away with a few invectives.
But, of course, this is all flyer talk--Right? I understand that you would like to conduct this conversation on a more elevated plane. So let's bypass all this flyer hoo-haw and get right to the point:
WHERE'S YOUR FUCKING MANNERS, BITCH! IF YOU'RE SO FUCKING THICK WITH THE INFINITE WHY DON'T YOU SMITE ME WITH YOUR SORCERER'S INTENT!
I hope that you understand the deep sense of respect that prompts me to attempt to find the proper language for a useful dialogue.
Is D for Dracula, because you believe you'll live forever? The farce is, CC attacked all religion because he said it was "egomaniacal" and fed our desire for immortality. The fact is, he tried to turn his books into the latest relgion, complete with beatude and everlasting life. This is how he seduced many people. Your posts sound like the rantings of a tent revival preacher condeming all of us non-believer "sinners" to hell, while you'll live forever and ever "navigating the Dark Sea of awareness". Sadly your hysterical self righteousness won't save you from the fate that is in store for us all. Iv'e seen enough people die to realize, most people die badly and with very little pyschological comfort. The only people who have any sort of comfort is with an opiate like their religion, or with a bloated sense of socio-historic importance. Those that follow cults like Cleargreen have both. By the way, your self importance is showing:)
Due to technical difficulties, today’s scheduled re-post of Clearhead’s "Interview Part1" from ADC, Nov. 99, is not available. However, this just in?/p>
Reprinted with Permission:
Christmas Party by Clearhead00
The First Annual Sustained Reaction Christmas Party and Dreaming Workshop was held at the palatial estate of Corey Donovan last night.
Corey (who seemed to be in the ‘nog a little early) started things off with a brief, rambling toast that covered everything from SA to Cleargreen to the weather to safe sex for an hour and a half. Ever the gracious host, Corey (who will forever be remembered as the ‘man with two dicks?to those who stayed around for the so called ‘magic show? then spent the rest of the evening trying to get in the pants of nearly every guest at the party.The long awaited Mud Wrestling Match between Calixto and Diana was called by referee Badger after only 5 minutes when Calixto went into a ‘dreaming state?after receiving a series of vicious head-butts from his opponent. After a long and ugly debate of the rules, Diana was disqualified but did treat the crowd to an impressive display of obscene language and gestures before stomping off, still covered with mud and Calixto’s blood. JG followed Diana around the rest of the evening complementing her and asking if he could get her anything.Lonnie, who showed up pretty well lit, started doing some serious drinking and made a pass at Linda while she was talking to Cara. Lonnie should be out of the hospital in a few weeks and says in lieu of flowers to please make a donation to the American Testicle Replacement Foundation. Linda says her foot is better, it was only a sprain.
Greg, who was found eyeing some bags of trash behind Corey’s house, finally jumped in the mud pit with Dragon for the second Grudge Match of the evening. Chris spent the first part of the evening throwing down Heinekens and trying to convince people he is really a nice guy and not an asshole. After the first dozen green ones he said ‘fuck it?and jumped in the mud to help out Greg who was getting his ass kicked by then.Aurelius got into a lively discussion about science with himself and made several really good points. daniel spent the evening going from person to person asking some really serious questions.
Bishop, Eric, Theo and some others standing outside drinking beer decided to have a contest to see who could piss the farthest. Everyone was really surprised when Linda won even with a sore foot.
The pool quickly cleared after what at first appeared to be a snake turned out to be a nearly 3 foot long turd. A somewhat drunk bd then tried to remove the giant floater with a barbecue fork, but ended up puking in the pool before falling in, thus ending the water games for a while. A person later identified as Clearhead had been seen by the pool just prior to the sighting of the ‘snake?Dan, who doesn’t drink, smoke, fuck, eat or shit, held an intimate little Dreaming Workshop for about 500 people in the backyard. After several young women wearing tight shorts with zippers on the sides were asked to leave, Dan was able to lead the participants through a very interesting and successful seminar.There was a large number of ‘pranks? including someone flushing apples down all the toilets in the house. The resulting overflow actually helped to contain some of the small fires that sprang up during the course of the evening.John L. spent the entire evening standing in a corner with his arms crossed, glaring at Corey, tapping his foot and looking at his watch every few minutes.
Cleargreen, as usual, had no comment.
Really funny stuff! I laughed out loud...
Somehow humor puts things into a different perspective, doesn't it?
I like that... : )
John L. said:
"Lonnie, who showed up pretty well lit, started doing some serious drinking and made a pass at Linda while she was talking to Cara. Lonnie should be out of the hospital in a few weeks and says in lieu of flowers to please make a donation to the American Testicle Replacement Foundation. Linda says her foot is better, it was only a sprain."
Hey! Not fair. I'm sure Linda wouldn't react that way. And if she did, I'm sure her ankle would come through the ordeal utterly unscathed.
Lonnie "please give generously to the ATRF"
John L. wrote:
>>"Lonnie, who showed up pretty well lit, started doing some serious drinking and made a pass at Linda while she was talking to Cara. Lonnie should be out of the hospital in a few weeks and says in lieu of flowers to please make a donation to the American Testicle Replacement Foundation. Linda says her foot is better, it was only a sprain.">>
>>>Hey! Not fair. I'm sure Linda wouldn't react that way. And if she did, I'm sure her ankle would come through the ordeal utterly unscathed.>>>
As long as Lonnie wasn’t trying to club me to death as one hapless soul did in Mexico once, he’d be just fine. It is a well known fact that most Southern women can take care of themselves very well, thank you very much. Some have even come close to converting Moonies to actual functioning human beings again. But that’s Gina’s story.>>Bishop, Eric, Theo and some others standing outside drinking beer decided to have a contest to see who could piss the farthest. Everyone was really surprised when Linda won even with a sore foot.>>
Actually, I cheated. I was using one of the devices I found at the following website:
I promise to refund all money to those who were placing bets. That is if my corporation does not go bankrupt first. And that my friends is the udder truth.
You're beautiful, man! -- Badger, after drying her tears from so much laughing.
Is there anywhere else on the net with as much humor as this place?
I'd really like to know.
HEY! You are way off base here. Disqualify me? Not before I ripped Calixto's head off and neck-fucked him with a dildo. And you didn't even comment on my mud-fighting outfit?? STOMP. STOMP. STOMP. JG? Fuck it all! You coming? Let's blow this joint, downshift to "bunnyrabbitsville", and do what comes naturally! diana.
Yes! My obelisk of genetic information needs dipping in your mud suit.
Even after three tickets, it still came as a shock when the police explained to me that people REALLY don't want their "trees watered"
Thank you, Corey, for sending this important message.
I have an acquaintance in Cleargreen, and I have at times treated him with contempt, because I confuse in my mind that person, who is just a seeker after the truth (albeit one who has wandered pretty far off the trail) and the ugly lies of some of the higher-ups in Cleargreen.
For the new year, I'm going to try to be kinder. Wish me luck.
P.S. All I want for Christmas is a new chronology. I hope that's not being mean.
Technical difficulties resolved, we now return to the regularly scheduled programming?From ADC by permission, Interview Part 1 by Clearhead00, November 4, 1999
The following is an interview with the hugely popular writer Clearhead00. Clearhead00 took time off from his recent nationwide book signing tour to grant this interview with Self Importance Magazine to answer some of the questions of his fans, and because the magazine offered a staggering amount of money.
The interviewer is Ben Brown, Editor-In-Chief of SIM. The interview was held at the luxurious 5-Star Gucci, Gucci, Gucci Restaurant in La Jolla, California in early August of this year.
Ben Brown has arrived early and is going over his notes. Ben's hands are still shaking a little since he looked at the prices on the menu. This is SIM's biggest interview of the year by far, and Ben has already spent the magazines budget for the next 3 years on Clearhead00's fee. Ben wishes he hadn't offered to pay for dinner too. He is already starting to think of ways to cut expenses, maybe his kids won't NEED winter coats this year, after all they do live in SOUTHERN Montana...
There is a commotion by the front door. A huge, grossly overweight man wearing shorts and a 'Magical Passes' T-Shirt, waddles straight over to Ben's table and plops down in the chair across from him. "Howdy little fellow, I'm Clearhead00, you must be Ben, got the check?"
As Ben hands the Cashiers Check across the table he notices that six attractive young women with short dark hair and very intense eyes, have followed Clearhead00 into the restaurant and are sitting at the table directly behind him. "Chacmools" Clearhead00 says with a big smile as he looks at the check before putting it in his wallet, "Follow me around like a pack a lost puppy dogs" looks over his shoulder "aint that right girls?" The young women continue to stare at the two men, but don't say a word. "so what you wanna ask me little fella? Cat got yer tongue?" Clearhead for some reason thinks this is hilarious and launches into a huge belly laugh which turns into a short coughing jag. Lighting a huge black cigar, Clearhead00 says "I worked up a powerful appetite walking in here from the limo, where's the menu?"
Ben Brown, a little unsettled, fumbles with his notes. He drops his pencil on the floor, and as he reaches for it, lightly bumps the shoulder of a pudgy spoiled looking little boy passing by with his parents. the little boy SCREAMS, "OW! SHIT! FUCK! GODDAMN! YOU BASTARD! YOU ALMOST BROKE MY FUCKING ARM YOU ASSHOLE! WHAT THE FUCK IS YOUR PROBLEM? FUCKING..." before Ben, who barely touched the boy, can say anything, a waiter appears with a menu for Clearhead00, and says to the boy's mother " I'm sorry Mrs. Rodgers, but we warned you we'd have to ask you to leave if Crissy had another outburst." The totally embarrassed parents drag the little boy out still screaming "...AND FUCK YOU IN THE ASS WITH THE AIDS VIRUS YOU SORRY SACK OF..."
Ben, a bit shaken, excuses himself to the men's room as Clearhead00 orders, "I'll have one of everything, except the Tex-Mex, gimme two of those, Oh and six glasses of water with lime for the ladies, they're on a diet!" he says with a big smile...
Re-post by permission from ADC: Interview Part 2 by Clearhead00
The following interview with writer Clearhead00 took place earlier this year at an exclusive restaurant in La Jolla, Ca.
As Ben Brown from Self Importance Magazine returns from the men's room, he can't help but wonder at the difference in Clearhead the small, thin, sensitive tenshead in the book, and the crude, fat slob Clearhead00 sitting at the table.
Having just experienced a rather embarrassing run-in with somebody's foul mouthed little brat, Ben is anxious to start the interview.
As Ben takes his seat across from Clearhead00, he notices that the six young women with Clearhead00 are still sitting at the table directly behind him, and are still staring at them with very serious looks.
With his notes on the table in front of him, and a firm grip on his pencil, Ben asks "Ah, I understand your book signing tour is going quite well, and you have a rather large, and some say rabid, following; could you tell us more about this?"
"Sure little buddy, no problem" Having just ordered, Clearhead00 holds his gaze in the direction of the kitchen as he speaks, "We been to 49 cities in 14 states so far on the tour, sold me a shitload a damn books!" he smiles, "The Party's coming along real good too, still looking for a 'westerly dreamer' with a Masters in Accounting, and a 'man of action' with a pilot's license rated for a LearJet."
Waiters start coming across the room with large trays of steaming food; Clearhead00 starts to sweat.
Ben says, "Your book seems to have a magic and mystery all it's own, and many people have said it has had a great effect on the way they live their lives" Clearhead00 watching the waiters setting platters of food on the table in front of him, wipes a little drool from the corner of his mouth and replies "Ah yeah, whatever" looking at the closest waiter "How about some Hot Sauce for the Tex-Mex?"
Ben orders dry toast and a small water as Clearhead00 digs in, Ben continues, "You seem to take offense of Reverend Corey and his Church of Sustained Action, and others seem to be getting tired of their message as well." Clearhead00 is really shoveling it in now. Ben goes on "As more people start to ignore Rev Corey and more people like yourself lash out at him, do you see a time when Rev Corey will just give up and go away?"
Clearhead's eyes go wide and his cheeks bulge out for a split second before he sprays a huge mouthful of food for 10 feet in front of him! "GIVE UP AND GO AWAY?" he croaks as he goes into uncontrollable laughter.
Ben had some how ducked behind the table in time to miss most of the projectiles. The well dressed elderly couple sitting behind him seems to have caught most of it. The woman upon realizing she had been sprayed with a large amount of saliva and half chewed Tex-Mex, passed out in her salad. Her husband is holding his chest and making loud wheezing sounds, as a large flock of waiters surround their table.
Clearhead00 is starting to gain some control over his laughter, and is mostly coughing and wiping tears from his eyes. Ben notices the young women, and now knows why they are sitting BEHIND Clearhead00.
Ben looks over his shoulder and sees the waiters, elderly couple and their table are gone.
Clearhead00 has mostly recovered and has resumed eating. "Damn that was a good one little partner, 'Give Up', hell, people like me poking a stick at 'em just makes the little fart mouths even more determined. Shit I NEED those bunch of anal retentive little bullies, I got a new book coming out soon! My lawyers said if this one's as big as the last one, I can buy that 1.5 million acre Mink Ranch in Nebraska I got my eye on!"
Clearhead00 has turned away from the table and is now eating directly from a dessert cart. A piece of cake in one hand, an eclair in the other, Clearhead looks at his watch, "Shit, look at the time! We gotta get! There's some kind of workshop up the hill at the university the girls want to go to, an I told 'em I'd take 'em if they behaved."
Clearhead00 stands, gives Ben a handshake and a big smile "Come on girls, back to the limo!" he says and is gone, followed closely by the six young women.
Ben is thinking about how fast Clearhead00 could move for such a big man, when the waiter brings the bill...
Slightly mod lyrics from Ozzy :-)
Meester Carlos, what went on in your head? Meester Carlos, did you talk with the dead Your life style to me seemed so tragic With the thrill of it all You fooled all the people with magic You waited on Nagual's call
Mr. Charming, did you think you were pure? Mr. Alarming, in nocturnal rapport Uncovering things that were sacred manifest on this earth Conceived in the eye of a secret And they scattered afterbirth
Meester Carlos, won't you ride my white horse Meester Carlos, it's symbolic of course Approaching a time that is drastic Standing with their backs to the wall
Was it polemically sent I wanna know what you meant I wanna know I wanna know what you meant
Merry Christmas everyone!
By the way, I just tried three times to post from the top of the page and is does not work. I wanted to say, or to ask, why don't you archive the whole forum? I have seen other BBS that use this same type of board, and when the forums are achived, all of the posts are available to refer to. Are you trying to save a few bucks by not including many of the posts, or is this a form of censorship you avail yourself of?
"Luis Bueno" asked: >>>>By the way, I just tried three times to post from the top of the page and is does not work.<<<<
I'm afraid I don't understand your question, since you apparently posted this message successfully. There are two ways to post to this page--either by clicking on the button "Post" at the top of the Table of Contents page, or by clicking on either the button "Post" or "Reply" from within a particular message (as long as they are still linked, which, unfortunately, most of the messages currently on the page no longer are, again, because they are getting unlinked when I clean up the page every two weeks or so).
Luis further commented/asked: >>>> I wanted to say, or to ask, why don't you archive the whole forum? I have seen other BBS that use this same type of board, and when the forums are achived, all of the posts are available to refer to. Are you trying to save a few bucks by not including many of the posts, or is this a form of censorship you avail yourself of?<<<<<
Mr. Bueno, it's "good" of you to ask. This is not a BBS as such. This Discussion page feature is a new wrinkle from Microsoft FrontPage 2000 that hasn't been very well thought out, as yet, since it doesn't have an automatic archiving function. If I didn't manually pull of half or more of the messages every 10 days to 2 weeks, the page would take 2 minutes or more for most people's web browsers to load, which would be excessive. This is because we're running around 500 to 600 messages every two weeks. The good news is that people are taking advantage of this page (in much larger numbers than I expected) and a lively debate and discussion is ongoing. The bad news is that the volume of posts and the buggy Microsoft software I'm using makes the cumulation of posts very unwieldy. I've set up the archives (manually, again) to capture the posts that, in my opinion, are likely to be of some interest to future readers. Since there are a number of duplicate messages, junk messages, one-line messages and the like, that means I archive between 40 and 50% of the messages approximately every two weeks. So, it's not a matter of "saving a few bucks" (I wish it were), it's more a matter of saving a little time for future readers of the archived posts. And although I am the "editor," as it were, of the archives, I try to be evenhanded--I don't include all my own posts, I try to include all the substantive posts "pro" and "con." But stuff that merely seems abusive of others, without any substantive content, is likely to get tossed. If you want to call that "censorship," be my guest.
I know why this works, but there's no point in explaining that since people will either try this and find out it works, or they won't.
Take a 15 pound dumbbell (10 for women) before bedtime, on a day when you aren't particularly tired and are not mentally fatigued. Then use it to work all major muscles for about 10 reps. When you're done wait 10 minutes lying down to see if you get sleepy. If you don't, repeat the whole thing again. If you don't feel sleepy after the second time then you're out of luck. Some people get sleepy when they work all their muscles, some people get "pumped" up and can't sleep.
Now I've been doing this with heavier weights, but doing that requires working up gradually and also a lot of time to figure out the max weight for each exercise. But I've gotten it to work with the lighter weights too.
If you don't know these exercises I guess you'll have to look them up in a book. I highly recommend it. You'll find out there's nothing special about tensegrity if you really take the time to look into these exercises.
I do the following: Sitting bicep curl, forearm wrist curl (arm on knee and use the fingers too), reverse wrist curl, sideways lateral deltoid raise, french curl, 1/2 lieing down fly, Leaning row (emphasizing back muscles). Then I do 1 legged calf raises on each leg, "sissy" squats, followed by regular squats. Finally I do as many crunches as it takes to get a "burn".
The weight is a little light for some, a little heavy for others. But I use the same weight to keep the fuss down. The idea is to avoid any aerobic exercises and depleat the muscles of sugar, while also doing some minor damage to them so that repair has to set in.
I get in to glorious dreaming this way, absolutely abstract and full of that exercise endorphin high. If you never tried weights only do this one time the first time, you might get really sore even though the weight is light.
On the first day of Christmas my true love gave to me A buzzard in a eucalyptus tree On the second day of Christmas my true love gave to me two lying scouts and a buzzard in a eucalyptus tree On the third day of Christmas my true love gave to me three so-called witches, two lying scouts and a buzzard in a eucalyptus tree On the fourth day of Christmas, my true love gave to me four peyote buttons, three so-called witches, two lying scouts and a buzzard in a eucalyptus tree On the fifth day of Christmas, my true love gave to me five "lineage" rings, four peyote buttons, three so-called witches, two lying scouts and a buzzard in a eucalyptus tree On the sixth day of Christmas, my true love gave to me six Datura cookies, five "lineage" rings, four peyote buttons, three so-called witches, two lying scouts and a buzzard in a eucalyptus tree On the seventh day of Christmas, my true love gave to me seven bags of "smoke", six Datura cookies, five "lineage" rings, four peyote buttons, three so-called witches, two lying scouts and a buzzard in a eucalyptus tree On the eighth day of Christmas, my true love gave to me eight trackers willing, seven bags of "smoke", six Datura cookies, five "lineage" rings, four peyote buttons, three so-called witches, two lying scouts, and a buzzard in a eucalyptus tree On the ninth day of Christmas, my true love gave to me nine elements a waiting, eight trackers willing, seven bags of "smoke", six Datura cookies, five "lineage" rings, four peyote buttons, three so-called witches, two lying scouts and a buzzard in a eucalyptus tree On the tenth day of Christmas, my true love gave to me ten pubic wigs, nine elements a waiting, eight trackers willing, seven bags of "smoke", six Datura cookies, five "lineage" rings, four peyote buttons, three so-called witches, two lying scouts and a buzzard in a eucalyptus tree On the eleventh day of Christmas, my true love gave to me eleven will revisions, ten pubic wigs, nine elements a waiting, eight trackers willing, seven bags of "smoke", six Datura cookies, five "lineage" rings, four peyote buttons, three so-called witches, two lying scouts and a buzzard in a eucalyptus tree On the twelfth day of Christmas, my true love gave to me twelve ampules of insulin, eleven will revisions, ten pubic wigs, nine elements a waiting, eight trackers willing, seven bags of "smoke", six Datura cookies, five "lineage" rings, four peyote buttons, three so-called witches, two lying scouts and a buzzard in a eucalyptus tree
I was visiting my fourteen year old cousin Max the other day. He's very into computers. Anyway, there seems to be kind of a LULL around here, so I thought you might enjoy checking out something Max showed me. It's a way to make all of our "complaining" chores ever so much faster and easier! Let me give you an unedited example:
" To a lesser degree and on a smaller scale, it remains to be seen if he will steal our birthrights before you know it.
I don't just feel that there is nothing more tragic than to find a decent, honest person who's been misled by Corey's repressive putrid effusions; I can back that up with facts. For instance, Corey is addicted to the feeling of power, to the idea of controlling people. Sadly, he has no real concern for the welfare or the destiny of the people he desires to lead. One thing is certain: It is widely known and beyond dispute that I leave open the question of the extent to which this discussion could be applied to truculent deplorable sewer rats. All Corey really wants is to hang onto the perks he's getting from the system. That's all he really cares about. I might be able to forgive him, but only if he promises never again to do everything possible to keep unrealistic hell-raisers unregenerate and bloodthirsty. His epithets are so insipid that if allowed to go unanswered, their final cost would be incalculable.
Given Corey's current mind-set, Corey's mottos are a pitiful jumble of incoherent nonsense. It should come as no shock to anyone that now is the time to redefine the rhetoric and make room for meaningful discussion. To deny that under the label of "nefarious" are those who, like Corey, empty garbage pails full of the vilest slanders and defamations on the clean garments of honorable people is prudish nonsense and political irresponsibility. It is nonsense because we should act and act fast. And it is irresponsible because Corey consistently falls short of telling the whole story or of making a solid point. The bottom line is that Mr. Corey Donovan would love to see me react violently..."
Now, that's totally unedited! But with a just a few keystrokes, I think it would really have been "on the money"! Anyway, if you want to check it out, the URL is: http://www-csag.cs.uiuc.edu/individual/pakin/complaint and it is www- and not www. Then just go to daily complaints or something like that. Just adding to the "cute" things recently making an appearance around here....sure was quiet!
Thanks for letting us know about another internet innovation. I had to test it too, of course. Here's what it said about you. (This is not *me* talking of course, just your 14-year-old cousin's website):
"My complaint about Diana formerly Anaid
The purpose of this letter is to outline a plan to recall the ideals of compassion, nonviolence, community, and cooperation. And that's why I feel compelled to say something about neurotic windbags. Take, as an example, the way that Diana formerly Anaid wants to subvert time-tested societal norms. Well, I challenge her to tell me what, if anything, in this letter is not completely truthful. As you can see, I find that some of her choices of words in her ideologies would not have been mine. For example, I would have substituted "mendacious" for "anatomicochirurgical" and "ill-bred" for "galvanocauterization."
Maybe you, too, want to seek temporary tactical alliances with evil spongers in order to make serious dialogue difficult or impossible, so let me warn you: Unprofessional sociopaths are receptive to Diana's avaricious messages and fool easily. I have seen what Diana is capable of, and I am afraid. I am very afraid and I am very angry. I assume that she is unaware of her obligation not to yield this country to the forces of darkness, oppression, and tyranny, as this unawareness would be consistent with her prior displays of ignorance. Note that the foregoing does not pretend to be an accurate description of all people who might be considered mean-spirited batty-types. It is only a rough indication of some of Diana's general tendencies. She and her cronies are wolves in sheep's clothing who will rob, steal, cheat, and murder some day.
For the record, Diana has a penchant for counterinsurgency and clandestine operations. On rare occasions, in order to preserve their liberties, sometimes people must turn our country into a self-serving disgraceful cesspool overrun with scum, disease, and crime. Diana does that even when her liberties aren't being threatened. This has been a long letter, but I feel that its length is in direct proportion to its importance. Why? Because your support of my jokes is an ideal way to tell bestial beatniks just what you think of their nonsense."
This particular innovation does seem to be of dubious worth to society, but maybe it will help "blocked" writers somehow. After all, I wouldn't have come up with a pithy phrase like "neurotic windbag."
Ahhhhhh! That's a good one! I'm sure my little cousins discovery will add *much* to the "fun" at this site, while John L. is still tapping his foot and waiting, and things here seem to be dying fast accept for the "cute" putdowns and a few good stories based on the putdowns! Maybe what's been said has been said, and it really is time to move on? I mean, you didn't put CARLOS CASTANEDA's name in the machine, you put MINE??? Wow, Analyze THAT! Anaid dianA, whatever