Sustained Reaction


Sustained Reaction Archive - Page 15

Archive Message Index

Abuse-a-mundo From: BADger Date: 12/21/99
Re: Abuse-a-mundo From: Cara Date: 12/21/99
Re: Abuse-a-mundo From: diana Date: 12/22/99
Re: Abuse-a-mundo From: Daniel Lawton Date: 12/22/99
Re: Abuse-a-mundo From: diana Date: 12/22/99
Re: Abuse-a-mundo From: Daniel Lawton Date: 12/22/99
Re: Abuse-a-mundo From: JG Date: 12/22/99
Re: Abuse-a-mundo From: Corey Donovan Date: 12/23/99
Re: Abuse-a-mundo From: JG Date: 12/23/99
Re: Abuse-a-mundo From: Daniel Lawton Date: 12/23/99
Re: Abuse-a-mundo From: diana Date: 12/23/99
Slightly related martial arts thread From: Daniel Lawton Date: 12/20/99
Get ready. Here we go again. From: Badger (hey, that was MY handle first!) Date: 12/20/99
Re: Get ready. Here we go again. From: Daniel Lawton Date: 12/21/99
No kidding! From: Badger Date: 12/21/99
Re: No kidding! From: Daniel Lawton Date: 12/21/99
Re: No kidding! From: Badger Date: 12/21/99
Re: No kidding! From: Daniel Lawton Date: 12/22/99
My kung fu's the best ;-] From: Badger Date: 12/22/99
Re: My kung fu's the best ;-] From: Daniel Lawton Date: 12/23/99
I thought my kung fu was the best :-( From: Badgermon Date: 12/23/99
Re: I thought my kung fu was the best :-( From: Lonnie Date: 12/23/99
Re: I thought my kung fu was the best :-( From: Daniel Lawton Date: 12/24/99
Re: No kidding! From: Date: 12/21/99
Re: No kidding! From: Badger Date: 12/21/99
Re: Slightly related martial arts thread From: Bishop Date: 12/20/99
Re: Slightly related martial arts thread From: Lonnie Date: 12/20/99
Re: Slightly related martial arts thread From: Bishop Date: 12/20/99
Re: Slightly related martial arts thread From: erik grafstrom Date: 12/20/99
Re: Slightly related martial arts thread From: trixie Date: 12/20/99
Nihilism and the Subjectivity of Truth From: Cara Date: 12/22/99
Re: Slightly related martial arts thread From: trixie Date: 12/20/99
Re: Slightly related martial arts thread From: trixie Date: 12/20/99
Re: Slightly related martial arts thread From: Daniel Lawton Date: 12/21/99
Waiting II From: John L. Date: 12/20/99
Waiting III From: John L. Date: 12/20/99
TO GREG From: daniel Date: 12/20/99
Re: TO GREG From: greggabi@aol.com Date: 12/21/99
Re: What Info Do You Require? From: Date: 12/21/99
Re: What Info Do You Require? From: Leonard Zimmerman Date: 12/21/99
Re: how to get on with your life From: D. is for Dargarpon Date: 12/21/99
New Naghual Conspiracy From: D. for Detective Date: 12/21/99
When you se the Nagual on the road, kill him! From: Badger Date: 12/21/99
Re: When you se the Nagual on the road, kill him! From: sven Date: 12/22/99
Women's workshop From: Date: 12/21/99
Re: Women's workshop From: Leonard Zimmerman Date: 12/22/99
Re: Women's workshop From: Daniel Lawton Date: 12/23/99
Waiting IV From: John L. Date: 12/21/99
Re: Waiting IV From: Lonnie Date: 12/21/99
Waiting V From: John L. Date: 12/21/99
RE:TO GREG From: daniel Date: 12/21/99
TO DANIEL... From: greggabi@aol.com Date: 12/23/99

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Abuse-a-mundo
From: BADger
Date: 12/21/99

Abuse, v., 1. to use wrongly or improperly; misuse. 2. to treat in a harmful, injurious, or offensive way. 3. to speak insultingly, harshly, or unjustly to or about; revile; malign. 4. to commit sexual assault upon.

Cara, you poor thing! I hope by now you have repaired the damage done to you. No doubt being called to the stand as a witness in this matter must help. You're a person deserving of attention after all! Go figure.

Funny how I was accused of being someone else based on "content and some stock phrases." So, in keeping with the tactics employed by the kind owner of this site, I would posit that Cara=Corey, or Cara=Linda Z.

Linda seems to be getting bent all out of shape because the "TBs" aren't all over the revelations of Cara. But, the thing is, what has Cara brought that wasn't here already? I mean, this is all self-reference. Just like Corey accuses Castaneda of putting Florinda and Taisha up to writing books to boost his credibility, the same could be said about Cara. What outside, independent corraboration does Cara bring? None! Just the words of an "abused," and disgruntled ex-member (supposedly). And we (TBs) are supposed to be all over this? This just elicits a big YAWN from me!

Oh, but the abuse. Who can forget the abuse?

It's getting old seeing certain "trigger" words being thrown around so much by the BFs. Words like abuse, cult, guru. They all trigger negative conotations. Repeat them enough times in relations to a person and you'll have others truley believing the accusations. It's classical conditioning! But let's examine the abuse issue.

Just like I object to the use of the word "cult," I also object to the liberal use of the term "abuse." Calling what you call "abusive" behaviour diminishes the impact the word has to describe REAL abusive behaviour. I've counseled both types in my practice. Those that have suffered terrible physical, emotional, or mental abuse and those whose only "abuse" was their hurt ego (usually over misinterpretation of events). So, Cara, to me, is a classic example of the latter (of course, based only on what she has written so far).

I'm curious about one thing. Did Cara (and others out there) read the books or only imagined it? I say this because it puzzles me how some actions by CC & Co. are labeled as controling and abusive given that other such things (and some even worse) were perpetrated on them by don Juan & Co.. Yet none of the BFs seem to address this. Do you all think that breaking the obsessive fixation on our image is accomplished with tea and crackers? What did you expect exactly?

I asked this question some time ago, but got only glosses in response. Perhaps it is a taboo question just now. But i'm really intrigued, just what did you expect would happen once you joined?

So, Cara, if you have more compelling evidence, perhaps you'll elicit more response. As it is, you're no different than the TBs that rant about their super sorcerer skills.

Such is the nature of the medium chosen for this expose'.

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Re: Abuse-a-mundo
From: Cara
Date: 12/21/99

Okay, if you must go on about this "abuse of the word abuse", let's refer to it in different terminology for the benefit of the terminally impaired.

For starters, you would have to have been there. I did read all the books, started at age 15 (up to 1/2 way through The Eagle's Gift) and had re-read many of them at the time I met CC in '93. I met him at a private lecture in someone's home. There were about 30-40 people there and when he'd finished lecturing and everyone stood and applauded, he bowed and took his leave, walking directly over to me. he bent over and whispered in my ear, "You have very good energy" and left.

After that Kylie called me and invited me to "secret, private" classes where CC put me in the front row middle facing him. Shortly after Kylie called and asked if CC could call me at home. They asked for my birth info to do astology on me. CC called and told me I was "Special" as per the time and place I was born, my energy and their perception of who I was to them.

My "fantasy" was mixed with fear and excitation. Was CC actually coming to get me, to teach me so that I could fully realize my "magical potential" - I thought so, partly. He called me every morning and or evening and talked at length about everything and nothing in particular. The group elevated me and several months later stopped class for a week. When we resumed it was at a differnt location and all the other "students" were absent. When I asked CC where all the others were he told me they let them go now that they had me. I was chided for admitting I had friends. It was a long year that I'll never forget.

At the end of my time with them I had been elevated to the "Electric Warrior", toasted with champagne at a fancy dinner and then accused of betraying them in regards to another woman they "courted" alongside myself (who got smart and got out early) and subsequently treated like a piece of trash.

A year before meeting them I had taken care of my mother for the remaining weeks of her life in a hospice in her apartment on a 24 hr. basis. I watch her shrink, shrivel and die a very ugly and painful death. I watched her dead body as the nurse pulled out the tubes after she died. I took her ashes home in a plastic box. This event had a deep and long-lasting impression on me and as time passed I grew into a deep depression. I couldn't work and for the only time in my life wanted to just get it over with and die, but I was too depressed to be able to get the energy to figure out how to execute myself.

This was pretty much the state I was in when I met CC & Co. I had pretty much decided that nobody in my life really cared and that I didn't care about anyone. They offered a space and a place and a family that gave me identity and purpose and hope. I only found out later how completely imbalanced and arbitrary this family was and the degree to which CC was compelled to control and humiliate, seduce and define the woman in his entourage.

And no, I'm not Corey and I'm not Linda. and I'm not complaining about the treatment I received from Taisha nor from Florinda - they were the nice ones! I have no interest in conditioning anyone. I'm only sharing with you what happened to me.

Unfortunately, I have suffered tremendous trauma and have been subjected to terrible and harmful treatment by others in my life as a child and as an adult. That is one reason I was vulnerable to such similar treatment by CC & Co. When they approached me offering acceptance, elevation and special staus within their group I was a very needy and depressed woman and trusted them without proper investigation into their natures and gave over my power to them with the subconscious thought that they would take care of me.

When I finally left them, actually, they left me out of class and never called me again. I had wanted to leave but was too emotionally attached to being with them, so I devised a plan whereby I pulled back emtionally knowing they would sense this and hopefully let me go. I had pretty much cut my ties with everyone else who had previously been in my life. So when I left them I experienced a great deal of disorientation, isolation, pain, anguish, enormous fear, mental anxiety enough to the point that I sought professional help. I had not been able to even get a job while with them - I worked as a temp - and had little money for therapy. I kept breaking down and crying uncontrollably. I tried to explain what was happening by telling one therapist that it was like my psyche was a house with many rooms and that all the interior walls had collapsed exposing everything in all the rooms at once. I was in the midst of a breakdown. It was truly terrifying - I felt like the Fugitive - running as fast as I could to escape, but I didn't know from what or whom I was running.

These experiences are classic examples of PTSS, the usual symptoms one experiences after having been in a cult. So sorry to use the "c" word, but it is true. Try reading The Guru Papers and you will see that no matter what organization a person escaped from, the manner of authoritarian control and other techniques applied in such situations tend to have a similar effect on members when they are no longer associated with the group.

And what are you addressing when asking about me having "read the books or imagined them" and labelling some actions by CC as "controlling and abusive" given that "other things were perpetrated on them by don Juan & Co".

Right off the bat CC told me "Forget about the books, don't read them" when I expressed my dismay that I hadn't read them all yet. And my experience with them had NOTHING to do with the books. No matter whom I told about this, nobody believed me that they were not the books and what they were doing had no relation to the books. It was an entirely different "configuration" (to use their idiomatic syntax).

I don't need to prove anything to anybody - so forget about eliciting "more compelling evidence" - no one is on trial here, if you haven't noticed. And I don't need your response. I'm sure you could find something better to do than try to refute my supposed "ranting".

Take care now...

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Re: Abuse-a-mundo
From: diana
Date: 12/22/99

Hi Cara, When I first read your post I didn't understand exactly who you were talking about. Now it's a bit clearer. The thing is, I don't want to sound like I am making light of the things that were going on. I can't say I know how you felt, because everyone feels it in a different way, but I can say I know what it was like for me to watch someone close to me die. What you were going thru at the time in your life was serious. People trying to ruin a man's reputation is also serious. I know a lot of people use the fact that Carlos seduced women as a way to prove that Carlos was a fraud. To me, I see it differently. I know that Carlos told his apprentices not to have sex. He said you had to save that energy for dreaming. But he also said that once you have saved enough energy, you can have "sexual fiestas". And so, I believe, that after thirty years, Carlos was at a point where he figured he had enough energy. I even think that he believed that he could use sex as a way to have an effect on women's energy. And so it may have seemed to him that it was worth whatever energy they might lose, and, in fact, Carlos might be able to cause some kind of energetic effect that could be helpful to them. I know that is a *totally* convenient way for me to feel, but that's how I feel about it. I can only go by as much as you told us, and, I have to say, that the way you describe it here, what Carlos did does not sound like he was just some kind of one night stand type of woman abuser. He didn't just notice you one night, have Kylie invite you over the next, sleep with you then and there, and for the next week, and then tell you to get lost. I've had girlfriends tell me that that happened to them and worse. You say that he "noticed your energy". Then he had Kylie call you, and invite you to classes. They actually did do charts for you to get some kind of astrological picture of you. And then Carlos called you every night for months, and he met with you and taught you privately for months as well. You say he told you to "forget the books". Well, to me, that would make sense, since so much of the early books were written before Carlos had figured out how to be able to access the stuff from heightened awareness. So, having HIM there -- it's like I could see him saying "Hey, I know what I said then, and I know what I know now, and it's easier if you listen to what I know now because now I'm aware of the bigger picture". And so, while the earlier stuff may well be valid, it might be that he knows "shortcuts" now, or just knows BETTER ways to be able to go about doing things. If someone had an old "victrola" type record player, and now they had some super CD or laser disc thingy, you can still get music from the old one, but the new one sounds better...Anyway, I just don't see what Carlos did that makes him into a FRAUD. You say that they "changed the rules", and I can believe that Carlos made the rules, and so he probably was changing them. But if the "witches" yelled at you, or even if he yelled at you, it's not the end of the world to be yelled at...it's not pleasant, but it happens at the workplace every day of the week...You say they teased you about having friends, and so apparently you gave up seeing your friends during the year. Then you say you were ready to leave. In fact, you say you began to withdraw emotionally from them, hoping they would ask you to go. To me, the thing about cults is that they do NOT let you go. That is NOT something a cult would do. So, you began to seem unhappy, and they picked up on it, and didn't want you around if you were unhappy with it, and okay, they moved on without you.That to me sounds like the worst part - if you asked them to help you in some way and they just refused, but I don't know from your post exactly how it happened. And I'm sure you were devastated considering that you had been in a very difficult place, then they made you feel better for a while - or at least they made you feel part of something, is that right? I'm sure it must have difficult...and I don't want to ask you to tell more then you want to tell. I'm just trying to say that I don't see how this negates forty years of a man's work and turns him into a total fraud. It's not like he said to you, "don't ask me about the shit I wrote about, it was all a hoax" , is it? Did you really have the feeling they were not even trying to do any dreaming, and that ALL they were about was abuse? I guess I'm just ranting now, so I'll stop. I'm glad you were able to find your way back to yourself. Hope you don't think this is TOO insenstive...diana

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Re: Abuse-a-mundo
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 12/22/99

But Carlos copied this exact behavior over and over with various women. Same scenario. You're special, you're the electric warrior, you're the librarian, you're the usher, you're the doctor.

I believe Corey's uncovered 6 to date, but undoubtedly there's a lot more.

He was using his teachings to collect women for sex, it's really obvious. And it was classic cult behavior, you need to read up on that. Sure cults throw out people that don't conform, that's exactly what they do. They can't keep trouble makers around.

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Re: Abuse-a-mundo
From: diana
Date: 12/22/99

SIX women?~?!? Is that all? I swear I thought you were talking about at least sixty, ABSOLUTE MINIMUM! Six women from 1993 thru 1998? That's one a year!

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Re: Abuse-a-mundo
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 12/22/99

There were others, we've heard about those in posts here. I'm only talking about the ones we knew for a fact he used that same line on, you're the last one I need, the special one that will complete my sorcerer's group. I was pointing out how Carlos used his sorcerer's status to gain a hold over women, through flattery. Women always stick up for him and say he's helping them escape their slave role in society, their obsession with their looks and specialness. But really he's preying on it like any other man who flatters, makes promises to be true, then doesn't keep them. In his case some of the women (not even most) stuck around because of the cult. But the wooing is just like any moralless guy in a bar who takes advantage of lonely women by promising a special relationship.

It should be obvious that Carlos' "free" classes had the purpose of gathering new women for the harim, even though there were men there. Look at her class. It was ended when he "found her". Likewise, my sunday class produced several women for his harim. I believe we also know of another past secret class group which produced the same result. The point is, he used his sorcery status to get women, it was a motivating factor for his teaching, and the fact that he taught for free isn't an indication of sincerity, it's a modus operandi.

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Re: Abuse-a-mundo
From: JG
Date: 12/22/99

C'mon now boys...

Dan, Corey Calixto et al. Fess up. Are you going to tell me you haven't ever taken advantage of someone? Like a guuurl. Please. Spare me this sappiness. 6 women? I can say that I have taken advantage of many people (Plenty of women) and many have taken advantage of me. I have been abusive of others and others have been abusive of me. Either way it's my problem. My conscience tells me I am not an angel. I live in the world.

But not Dan and Corey, they are little angels. What would they know about anything like that? Golly, Gee Whiz. Of course these are the people without conscience. They are priests. They can do whatever they want because they know that somebody up there likes me. (Cause really, nobody down here does).

They are the one's historically who accept the destruction of entire cultures because they know what's best for everyone. So Catholic. So Islamic. As evidence of their right to do it, they point to the good grades they got in school. Isnít that one of basis that Dan has used to discredit those who still believed? Education has nothing to do with intelligence. Talk to the "peasants" in this world. You are no smarter.What do you think humans are? We are animals. I don't mean it in a pejorative sense. I like animals They are real. They are always looking for food, playing, fighting, having sex and protecting the young. Much the same as we do. Some do it well and some don't.

We seem to be different in that we have the awareness or consciousness of ourselves as separate beings that remember. We use what seems to be a more elaborate language to do it. This gives us identity. Other animals may not have this ability at our level or in the same way.

The major driving force of our lives is sex. That is the strongest most intense feeling we experience. It's always bubbling in the background as a motivational force for all kinds of things having to do with your status. The universe wants you to have sex presumably to create more. It doesn't care about all the problems we encounter with this urge it has put in us. "Just do it" it is saying "and do it monthly or at least seasonally, will ya."

So Castaneda is on to something when he says to use this force strategically. It is a strong force. And it can be harnessed temporarily as fuel for movement in other directions.

Humans don't want to change and face themselves. At least I don't. So I have to force myself to see what I am. I do it through sensing myself. There is no thought involved except after I have sensed myself. There are feelings lingering around in us. If you listen you can hear your fear and then behind it the "horrible" truth about what you actually, as an animal feel, and then make your behavioral adjustments. I am not pretty. I am not "basically a good person" or some other such non-sense. Others are what they are...

We act as other animals do. We have turned our world into an abstraction and we have come to believe in the abstraction rather than what we sense. Our senses try to tell us what we are. We are not pretty little things.

What kind of world do you think this is? A toy world? Only in LA, in America do we find people who can believe in those horrible sappy Christmas films with Jimmy Stewart.

At least Cara has said something about her perception of her experience. But there is nothing objective offered. Cara says she felt abused. But Cara never had sex with Castaneda over a long period of time. It's not clear if he ever directly asked. That's one for Castaneda, isn't it?

You guys seem to think if he had sex with someone that's proof of abuse. The possibility exists that some of the women he "collected" were collecting him. Women can be horribly abusive of men... and are...regularly.

C'mon on now girls...

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Re: Abuse-a-mundo
From: Corey Donovan
Date: 12/23/99

JG: >>>>Dan, Corey Calixto et al. Fess up. Are you going to tell me you haven't ever taken advantage of someone? Like a guuurl. Please. Spare me this sappiness. 6 women? I can say that I have taken advantage of many people (Plenty of women) and many have taken advantage of me. I have been abusive of others and others have been abusive of me. Either way it's my problem. My conscience tells me I am not an angel. I live in the world. <<<<

I respond: You really didn't need to tell us that you have been abusive of others: it shows.

Dan's reference to six women, which he has already explained was to the women who had been seduced with the line that they were the "Electric Warrior" in the last few years of Castaneda's life, was his own conservative estimate. There were certainly more than six such women, but Castaneda also seduced a lot more women than that in few years of the workshops without resorting to the "Electric Warrior" line (not to mention the dozen or more women who were part of his regular entourage at Cleargreen with whom he had ongoing sexual relationships). And if you want to go back to the sixties or seventies, it's an incredibly long list. And yes, I'm sure that a number of these women *were* attracted to his celebrity status and were more than willing to be seduced. In more recent years, however, Castaneda played the "guru" card pretty hard.

What you seem incapable of distinguishing here is that Castaneda set himself up as the absolute and only authority on a particular "path to freedom," and then used that position in some cases (are you really hung up on how many?) to pressure a number of young women to have sex with him. Then he and his group insisted that it "wasn't sex." In doing so, Castaneda was not unique by any means. It is fairly standard practice in many authoritarian groups.

Maybe the following excerpt on cultic behavior will refresh your recollection about how authoritarian guru types typically operate:

"Promiscuous sexual behavior/infidelity Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, polygamy, rape, and sexual acting out of all sorts are frequently practiced by cult leaders. Conversely, there is often stringent sexual control of the followers through such tactics as enforced celibacy, arranged marriages, forced breakups and divorces, removal of children from their parents, forced abortions or mandated births. For psychopaths, sex is primarily a control and power issue. Along with this behavior comes vast irresponsibility not only for the followers' emotions but also for their lives. In one cult, for example, multiple sexual relations were encouraged even while one of the top leaders was known to be HIV positive. This kind of negligence toward others is not uncommon in the psychopath's world. Marital fidelity is rare in the psychopath's life. There are usually countless reports of extramarital affairs and sexual predation upon adult and child members of both sexes. The sexual behavior of the leader may be kept hidden from all but the inner circle or may be part of accepted group sexual practices. In any case, due to the power imbalance between leader and followers, sexual contact is never truly consensual and is likely to have damaging consequences for the follower." [From *Captive Hearts, Captive Minds: Freedom and Recovery from Cults and Abusive Relationships*, by Madeleine and Landau Tobias and Janja Lalich (1994), p. 77-8.]

JG again:>>>>>But not Dan and Corey, they are little angels. What would they know about anything like that? Golly, Gee Whiz. Of course these are the people without conscience. They are priests. They can do whatever they want because they know that somebody up there likes me. (Cause really, nobody down here does). They are the one's historically who accept the destruction of entire cultures because they know what's best for everyone. So Catholic. So Islamic<<<<<

What?! Oh, I guess you're just giving us another example of how abusive you can be. As I said, I think we already figured that out.

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Re: Abuse-a-mundo
From: JG
Date: 12/23/99

Of course. Of course. That was easy for you. I was hoping you wouldn't do that...

But really...have you ever been nasty to anyone. Have you ever been abusive? ...Never mind...on second thought...don't answer...it's ok.

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Re: Abuse-a-mundo
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 12/23/99

Geovanna was Vicktoria (sp?), married to Paul. I could give you lots and lots of details, I watched her transform, but that wouldn't be nice. She's been victimized enough. Carlos seperated her from Paul, who got another girlfriend. She substituted affection for him for affection for the group, imitating the antics of the lesbians in the group who used to play with each other in class (although I don't think she knew she was imitating sexual play behavior). It was described to us by Carlos as childlike play that happens when you practice tensegrity.

Geovanna was invited to special events, dinner, etc. She skillfully dodged the sex thing, I heard details of how, but didn't pay much attention. In the sunday classes we watched her get closer to cleargreen, then be pushed away, then get closer, then get pushed away. She never made it in while Carlos was alive. But as a dedicated workshop attendee, a worker in the bookstore, with a husband who guarded Carol Tiggs, she was always close to the inside group.

After he died some people from the sunday class were invited to practice with cleargreen. If you had friends in cleargreen, sometimes by outright kissing up, you fared better at getting invited. Eventually they took in Lance and Geovanna, and put them up on stage. Anyone who wants to get "in" should just refrain from relating unbelievable stories, don't report experiences unless specifically asked, and then couch them only in cult approved terms. Be conservative, keep secrets well, and give obvious signs of admiring anyone in cleargreen you can get close to. Best to pick someone at the top. Then if they have an interest, be interested in that. If they give advice, tell them you followed it and it worked extremely well. Just schmooze and don't cause trouble. It used to be good if you were a thin, young, light skinned female. Or a male who was attractive to the blue scout (or female for that matter). Now it's probably based on long term association and whether there's a vacancy.

There are others I know of who dodged the sex thing while Carlos was alive, and weren't taken in as a result, even two males who were supposed to have sex with Carol Tiggs, and another female who Carlos wouldn't touch, probably because of Herpes, who was being set up for one of the male trackers.

So from accounts of people who will talk, it was consistant that entry required sex. Until the people inside cleargreen come out, we won't know about them. Except that a couple have mentioned the sexual aspect involved in the entry, in a non-specific way.

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Re: Abuse-a-mundo
From: diana
Date: 12/23/99

Chris, Ah, good, time for a little character analysis! Now, you really don't know who I am, do you? I mean you really don't *know*, will you admit that? And Corey is always starting his little posts with things like "so and so vituperated", "or Diana said angrily", but the thing is, I am here because it makes me laugh my ass off most of the time. I may try to clear things up, when I think people have misunderstood me, or I may say "OH come on!" and seem to be angry, but I have not "felt" anger while I'm "tuned in" here, or in thinking about stuff...Calixto comes the closest to "making me angry",especially in "Satan" mode, which I find "ugly" but really, I find the exchanges I've had with him have also really been fun in the end. I admit I'm curious about stuff that really doesn't matter,like with Cara,but she does, IMHO, "tease" us a bit, by starting stuff that she doesn't seem to want to finsih, and it's kind of a "predilection" of mine, finding out stuff that I'm "curious" about. But so much for Corey's idea that people in Cult's can't help but RESPOND if someone says to them "TELL ME" or "FETCH ME" or "DO ME". And I know I come off as being "ditzy" on many occasions,and I know I haven't read nearly as much as many here, and I know that they are "smarter" than I am, and I don't care, and I keep plodding away with my little posts, 'cause I know who and what I am, and what I am trying to "accomplish" by being here. And it has *nothing* to do with money! Remember? We're all fools, and if we don't get it together in a big way, we ain't goin' nowhere but the grave. We are all going to DIE and eternity is a VERY LONG TIME if it turns out that it's not a lot of fun where we end up! And "those emanations" they are not "fooling around" as Don Genaro once said. Your emanations, however you have altered them thru YOUR perception, and MY emanations, ditto, are going to end up back in the nagual, and gonna get bound up again by the force of life, and "someone" is gonna get born back here on earth. If you want to incorporate more judging, stupidity, fear, anger, ugliness etc. into what gets spewed back here to earth as life, keep on the path you are on now. Keep up your "knee-posting", (hey, I do my share, too, but not usually as 'ugly' as yours) And feel free to add any more speculation if you'd like to, and I may comment on it, or I may let it slide depending on my mood. Now,my turn to "play" "ANALYZE THIS!". To me, you appear to actually be one of the dumbest people here. But you may have overcome a lot to get even the meager amount of awareness you manifest! Your friends might well be skinheads, KKK'ers, who knows! And you certainly are quite "full of yourself" from your posts! You think that you are the "first one" who really got some info on Joanie Barker, "BEFORE ANYBODY ELSE", you said, and YOU WANT CREDIT for that in everyones minds. You are another one who spouts stuff about "comin' in for the kill" any day now. You spend hour after hour after hour on ADC, here, everywhere I've looked, I see post after post of yours, and I am amazed! I haven't even READ a third of the posts you've posted on ADC, and you took the time to WRITE them! Maybe you should get some sleep, do some dreaming for a bit? I'm gonna start doing more of that myself. So, as Calixto's "friend" used to say "I'm outa here" for now, and it's been real....uh, well, it's been real! diana.

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Slightly related martial arts thread
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 12/20/99

A while back someone commented that true martial arts masters didn't fight in tournaments but that if they did they'd win.

I urge anyone that believes this to rent the abundant videos of "ultimate" fighting tournaments and the like. These are the tournaments where nearly anything goes. It's real fighting.

If you pay attention, and if you've ever done any martial arts sparring yourself, you'll realize how easy it is to dodge a single blow while charging in, then grab the person, and turn it in to a wrestling match. So most styles of martial arts go out the window immediatly when the rules about grabbing are tossed out. Typically these fights contain an initial period of a little martial arts style skirmish, then it degrades into someone sitting on top of someone else looking for a better leverage advantage. Maybe a little elbow to the back of the head. There's very little chance for any kind of limb oriented attach, all limbs are pinned on both opponents. Strength then becomes the biggest factor, followed by wrestling knowledge. Greco wrestlers typically don't do well, it's the jui-jitsu wrestlers who typically prevail. I never studied either, so I haven't been able to see why.

The point is, cults form under all conditions. The leaders of the cults that claim some kind of supernatural ability don't even have to do anything to prove it. Disciples come up with all kinds of reasons their leaders won't demonstrate their abilities. This isn't out of loyalty, it's outright selfishness. The person is learning that himself, naturally he's going to claim what he's learning to do will make him superior to everyone else.

Why are we all such big saps for anyone that comes along claiming they have something better, what makes us unwilling to take an honest look?

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Get ready. Here we go again.
From: Badger (hey, that was MY handle first!)
Date: 12/20/99

Good grief, Charlie Brown. What the hell was that!

Hey Dan, have you been eating those Datura cookies?

Where to start...?

I'm not sure how you can logically relate both sections of your post. Cults form under ALL conditions? Okay.

What really throws me off is the martial arts reference.

For starters, I do agree with the statement about how "real" martial artists wouldn't be found in those "anything goes" tournaments (Oh, no! Now I'll have to convince Corey that I'm not whoever wrote that post). BTW, those Ultimate Fighting Championships are hardly what I would call "real fighting. And "nearly anything goes?" That "nearly" takes out the best "real fighting" moves (i.e. breaking the windpipe or the knee, eye gouging, etc.).

Here's a recounting of a pretty well known story within the martial arts community:

"I once read a martial arts book by some poor silly bastard who went around attacking martial art masters to see if they were really that tough. He got slugged by quite a few and could describe their techniques when surprised. He finally jumped some old Chinese doctor and herbalist who had an international but low-key reputation for chi kung and martial expertise. The boob woke up in a hospital dying of severe bioelectrical malfunctions that Western medicine couldn't explain or adjust. He had to hire the Chinese doctor he had assaulted to consult on his case. The old gentleman kindly saved his life. This young thug retired ignominiously from his stupid hobby after experiencing the real thing." From "Path Notes of an American Ninja Master" by Glenn Morris (I highly recommend THIS book too, especially if you're into the esoteric side of the martial arts).

For "real" martial artists, their abilities are NOT for sport, but for prevailing. How could this be applied in an "octagon?" Fights would last seconds, with the "sportsman" on the ground gasping for air or blood coming out of his ears and suffering a seizure. That kind of stuff is frowned upon by the authorities.

But like I said, for the Budoka, the martial art is a vehicle through which he/she seeks enlightenment. Put another way: "While retaining martial skills at it's core - the aim is for higher understanding. For that end - we utilize the martial skills as a demonstrative tool, from which we draw conceptual analogies pointing to universal truths."

This also points to why a "true" mystic (or sorcerer/initiate/alchemist, etc.) won't go around proving the skeptics wrong. Who cares!?

Just wondering... Do you get royalties for those videos? :-)

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Re: Get ready. Here we go again.
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 12/21/99

>That "nearly" takes out the best "real fighting" moves (i.e. breaking the windpipe or the knee, eye gouging, etc.).

Actually, they allow breaking the windpipe or knee, just not the eyes.

>Here's a recounting of a pretty well known story within the martial arts community:

That's the kind of story I don't believe. If the guy can do that, why doesn't he go out and collect the rewards from people like the skeptics society. He's selling his services as a doctor, why not get the $1 million.

Because it's just a story, he can't do that.

And that's why I said cults form all over the place. Just about all martial arts studios have their own stories like this one.

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No kidding!
From: Badger
Date: 12/21/99

"Actually, they allow breaking the windpipe or knee, just not the eyes." --Daniel Lawton

They allow crippling and killing? You know what the windpipe is, don't you? Maybe I've been seeing the wrong fights.

"That's the kind of story I don't believe. Because it's just a story, he can't do that." --Daniel Lawton

Don't believe it! Find out!

Like I said, it's a well known story. Go to any martial arts discussion page and you can find out the names and current whereabouts of the people involved. And, if you're so inclined, you might even be able to talk to them about the incident. Guys that knew the "thug" couldn't believe what happened when they saw him in the ICU. Do you know who William Cheung is? Well, the "thug" once went to his dojo an assaulted him (beat him up pretty bad). Don't believe, find out!

"If the guy can do that, why doesn't he go out and collect the rewards from people like the skeptics society. He's selling his services as a doctor, why not get the $1 million." --Daniel Lawton

Here you go again! Is money the most important thing in your life? Why do you assume it is for everyone else?

Why do you equate practicing medicine with acting the part of the circus sideshow freak?

You just don't seem to get it. All you tell me by your atttude expressed in your posts is that your experience of something greater than yourself (call it whatever you like)is lacking.

Some things just aren't for sale.

"And that's why I said cults form all over the place. Just about all martial arts studios have their own stories like this one." --Daniel Lawton

So you would think that, after the notoriety, the old doctor would have dozens of followers. Truth is he had a handful of students before the incident and the same number after. There were a lot of wannabes, but he didn't take them (I wrote a paper on this when I was in high school).

Are you a banker by any chance (or an accountant)?

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Re: No kidding!
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 12/21/99

Breaking the windpipe and knees is deffinately allowed in some of the fights, not all. I have a friend who's totally in to this stuff and knows the rules in and out. He's always foisting his latest video tape off on me. My first reaction was to tell him the tournaments were invalid for the very reasons you stated. He set me straight, I got an open mind, watched the videos, and realized how fake normal martial arts really are. The fights he showed me were from foreign countries. They aren't legal here.

If you've actually practiced martial arts you'll know you spend nearly all your time fighting the air. In some schools you spend time sparing, but under really fixed rules. Wrestling is usually completely out. And the high ranking people are politicians. No one above 5th degree in a japanese school would dare compete in an outside tournament. A defeat would have a disastrous effect on the entire system. Ranks above that are purely political.

Kick boxers are pretty real, but they can't tolerate being grabbed. In fact, most of their moves are silly if you allow grabbing, they get themselves into really awkwardpositions with their legs up high.

Boxers are pretty real too and strong, but again don't have a clue what to do if grabbed.

As far as your kung fu guy, there's no way to investigate that. The students will say whatever, just like cleargreen folks. The teacher will toss me out. I've been all over, checking out all kinds of schools. Sounds like you haven't. If you claim you have, tell me some tales. I have many of them, I really did go looking.

Now maybe you just happen to know of the one real instance, but it isn't likely enough for me to put my time into. After 20 years of stopping at every school I could find I'm satisfied that well's dry.

I'm assuming you were implying the guy had some supernatural form of vibrating palm technique or something similar that is supposed to work on an energetic level. My assumption is that whatever he did, if anything, was purely physical, although possibly amazing at that.

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Re: No kidding!
From: Badger
Date: 12/21/99

Are your friend's tapes illegal? I'll ask again, do you know what the windpipe is and what happens when you break it? Sounds like snuff films to me.

I'm not sure what the point was for mentioning kickboxers, boxers, etc., so I won't even touch that. Just one thing, there are a few martial arts whose practitioners are equally at home duking it out at long and mid ranges as with close quarter grappling/wrestling. The best I've seen is ninpo taijutsu.

"As far as your kung fu guy, there's no way to investigate that. The students will say whatever, just like cleargreen folks. The teacher will toss me out. I've been all over, checking out all kinds of schools. Sounds like you haven't. If you claim you have, tell me some tales. I have many of them, I really did go looking." --Daniel Lawton

I tried to tell you that you CAN investigate, if that's your inclination. I don't mean go and talk to the students, but to other people involved (i.e. physicians or witnesses not personally involved with either party). It would take some work, but it's possible.

As far as checking out different schools, you're right. I haven't. I started practicing Aikido when I was 8, did that for 12 years. Then I got into ninpo taijutsu. I've been doing that for the past 16 years.

I said it before and I'll say it again. To me you come across as what I call a "dojo hopper," so I'm not surprised that your search hasn't proven fruitfull. Kind of like going into electrical engineering because you want to design your own guitar effects pedals and then, after failing second semester physics, dropping out because it's not worth your effort.

"I'm assuming you were implying the guy had some supernatural form of vibrating palm technique or something similar that is supposed to work on an energetic level. My assumption is that whatever he did, if anything, was purely physical, although possibly amazing at that." -- Daniel Lawton

I don't know what the old doctor did. All I remember is that the attending physicians couldn't figure out what was wrong with him (although he was dying). I don't know what you mean by "energetic level," but I would like to know what background knowledge you have of Oriental medicine before any further discussion.

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Re: No kidding!
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 12/22/99

Never heard of that particular art. But since Jui-jutsu is what wins at those tournaments maybe your stuff is useful.

Come on already with the windpipe stuff! Just tuck your chin in and keep your arms up. There aren't any secret martial art places to attack, that's just a placebo to feed beginners. Bundle your keys up and scratch his eyes, that'll keep the rapist away! Bullshit.

I studied japanese karate for 8 years solid, several hours a day, acheiving only 2nd degree black belt because of switching between 3 schools, all with the virtually exact same style. Same rank as Taisha, same school, same head instructor. I even saw Taisha and Carol at tournaments.

I studied other arts for up to 5 years each, more intensely than anyone else in the place. In hapkido I was the instructor at one studio for about a year because I'd been practicing 5 hours a day for so long the teacher finally just left me in charge of his huntington beach studio. Hapkido is typically a big mess of borrowed techniques, so there's not much to say about that.

Anyway, I'm a dojo hopper, but that has nothing to do with training. I guess if you want to stick around and learn japanese politics there's a benefit to attending a single school only, since any rank above 4th or 5th degree is purely political.

Anyway, I studied at over 15 schools, and visited hundreds. In my heyday I was practicing at 3 schools at the same time, for about 7 hours a day total training.

But I was looking for the "magic" and never found it. Now, I don't believe there's any there, just a lot of oriental hype. I also spend a lot of time studying data sheets for oriental semiconductors and I have to say they are the biggest exagerators and bragards there ever were. No reason to think they don't do the same with their religions or martial arts, hyperbolie is built into their language as a form of social reverence. I've been told by chinese people that few in china would fall for that stuff, that only americans try to turn everything into something supernatural.

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My kung fu's the best ;-]
From: Badger
Date: 12/22/99

Hey Dan, I just thought of some candidates for the $1M.

The first is Howard Lee. You mention in the piece you wrote for the Explorations section that he could "see energy," although not visually. Since you said you became friends, why don't you ask him to "prove it?"

The second candidate depends on what the criteria to get the money is. Let me explain. Or better yet, I'll use an outside source.

"The godan (fifth degree) test of Togakure Ryu Bujinkan Ninpo consists of the student kneeling in seiza with his or her eyes closed in meditation or terror, as the grandmaster, also in meditation, stands behind the student with a sword. When the grand master is ready he attempts to halve the student. It's the student's job to roll out of the way, avoiding the strike. The grandmaster swings with his eyes shut, with the sword starting from above his head. The victim or person about to be promoted or dissected sits on his feet under the strike of the sword. Witnesses observe to ascertain there is no cheating, or to poke fun at each others teaching results as Hatsumi, like justice, is blind." From "Path Notes of an American Ninja Master" by Glenn Morris. He then goes on to describe his test.

Now would repeated performance of this test constitute "proof" of some sort?

All I can say is if you were looking for "magic" perhaps you should have tried Ninpo. You still can.

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Re: My kung fu's the best ;-]
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 12/23/99

>The first is Howard Lee. You mention in the piece you wrote for the Explorations section that he could "see energy," although not visually. Since you said you became friends, why don't you ask him to "prove it?"

Howard's seeing was a lot like my own last time I talked with him. Too abstract to test. Since then I haven't heard of him doing anything concrete with it. But if I do hear something concrete I'll sure try to devise a test.

>"The godan (fifth degree) test of Togakure Ryu Bujinkan Ninpo consists of the student kneeling in seiza with his or her eyes closed in meditation or terror, as the grandmaster, also in meditation, stands behind the student with a sword. When the grand master is ready he attempts to halve the student.

I've known martial artists who could do things like this. It's really borderline. I doubt it would get the money. You could say the student heard the rustle of clothes, or the swish of the sword, etc. Now if a student could do this with stereo headphones blasting white noise into his ears, blindfolded, in a totally dark room, with a long interval before the attack, I believe you'd have something there. They'd have to pay up. But I suspect you'd end up with a bloody student.

Besides, I'm dreaming back to the days of don Juan materializing objects, tossing people off cliffs, and don Genero hiding under a hat. This little stuff pales next to that.

Martial arts? Get a gun. Protect yourself? It would be more useful to learn to do a lot of pull ups, it's more likely you'll fall off something and your life will depend on pulling your own body weight up than it is that you'll be attacked by someone with a sword.

Now if those Ninpo people could really jump 30 feet in the air, like the stories I've read, I'd be over there in a heart beat.

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I thought my kung fu was the best :-(
From: Badgermon
Date: 12/23/99

Well, now I see why you've missed the "magic."

"Martial arts? Get a gun. Protect yourself? It would be more useful to learn to do a lot of pull ups, it's more likely you'll fall off something and your life will depend on pulling your own body weight up than it is that you'll be attacked by someone with a sword." --Dan (may I call you Dan?)

I hate bad cliches!

You don't practice martial arts ONLY for "self-defense." That mentality is one of the reasons it's hard to find good (or "real") martial arts teachers in the U.S..

So, you think the sword evasion maneuver could be attributed to hearing the sword or the rustling of clothes? How long do you think it takes for the blade to come down? How long does it take for you to hear, interpret, decide, and move?

Replica Watches  Replica Watches

I've not only seen the test performed, but took it myself 4 years ago. I've seen people try to fake it using external cues, and the result is always the same, they get smacked! There's a discernable awkwardness when this is attempted. BTW, a shinai is used, NOT a live sword.

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Re: I thought my kung fu was the best :-(
From: Lonnie
Date: 12/23/99

Badger writes:

"I've not only seen the test performed, but took it myself 4 years ago. I've seen people try to fake it using external cues, and the result is always the same, they get smacked! There's a discernable awkwardness when this is attempted. BTW, a shinai is used, NOT a live sword."

Well, that's a relief.

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Re: I thought my kung fu was the best :-(
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 12/24/99

Can't tell how long it takes the sword without seeing the test. If the blade is lifted as a step is taken, then dropped, there's nothing supernatural about being able to avoid it. But if the blade were about 6 inches above the head and simply flicked down on the head, there's no way in hell anyone would be able to dodge that.

So obviously the test is set up to allow for reaction times and to make it possible to perform it. Even so, I bet if I had control of the sword no one would miss getting hit, not because I'm any good, but because I wouldn't "help" them, as is so common in martial arts demos and tests.

Some aikido styles reek of that help, the whole thing doesn't even work if people don't leap around to accomodate each other.

There's lots of fakery to get worked up over in the martial arts world. Which was part of the idea behind my original post, since Carlos set up his own martial arts system fraught with fakery. People just buy in to it.

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Re: No kidding!
From:
Date: 12/21/99

Badger wrote:

>>Guys that knew the "thug" couldn't believe what happened when they saw him in the ICU. Do you know who William Cheung is? Well, the "thug" once went to his dojo an assaulted him (beat him up pretty bad).>>

Is this the same William Cheung, a doctor of Chinese medicine in NYC's Chinatown? He also teaches Wing Chun Kung Fu. According to your statement it appears that he beat up Cheung. But it also appears that the "thug" was put into the ICU by him. Would you clear this up for me? I once studied with Cheung in the 80s. He was a simple and kind man.

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Re: No kidding!
From: Badger
Date: 12/21/99

Yes, it's the guy that wrote some instructional books about wing chun. But, he's not the old guy that beat up the "thug" (I can't remember his name, but he also wrote martial arts books).

Like I said, go to any martial arts BBS and someone there can probably give you more info.

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Re: Slightly related martial arts thread
From: Bishop
Date: 12/20/99

Daniel writes:"Why are we all such big saps for anyone that comes along claiming they have something better, what makes us unwilling to take an honest look?" I think somebody answered that in an earlier post. He said that he just could not believe that all of those books and all those stories and techniques came simply from the cognitive meanderings of one man (or something to that effect). I think that is where the catch lies. Although I've noticed that CC and Cleargreen did (and does) seem to attract those of the "stereotypical" cult junkie set, there are many people who post here who do seem to possess intellect, perspective and a healthy sense of scepticism. For myself, I grew up in a deeply Catholic atmosphere and rejected it at a very early age, as I was to reject any other belief system that I came across. I saw to easily through the bullshit and hypocrisy and banality of religion and/or moral posturing. Eventually,in high school, I grew into an extremely pretentious Angry Young Man with an unwarranted sense of superiority. That's when I discovered "Journey to Ixtlan". The more I read and the more deeply involved I got I simply took everything at face value because (and I wince now) for the first time, I couldn't see any bullshit or inconsistencies or anything that would raise an alarm, so I let my guard down. It confirmed my anti-societal views, it made me feel powerful and unique (remember, theres nothing better at corrupting:))and it was so fucking original, or so I thought. I believed so much in my ability to never be wrong about anything that I simply bought it, hat shoes and all. And being being a depressed nihilist, it FELT GOOD to believe in something for a change (I know it sounds tacky but I'm trying to be emotionally honest here.)there is no feeling in the world like HOPE especially for someone who lacks it. Those of us who spend all our energies looking for answers are very susceptible to the possibilities thereof. It's only those who don't have the need for something more in life who don't understand those that fall prey to a bright light like CC (or Heavens Gate, Jonestown, hell, the fucking Masons.)I think I'm babbling here, so Daniel(or Corey, or anyone) tell me what you think. I have more to say, but I'll wait until I'm able to better articulate myself. One more thing, I used to ridicule "brainwashed cultists" until I realized I WAS one. What a healthy, delicious blow to my ego! I needed it.

Back to the bottom of the hill,

Sisyphus

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Re: Slightly related martial arts thread
From: Lonnie
Date: 12/20/99

Hi Dan, Badger (the real one), Bishop,

First of all I agree with Badger that the Ultimate Fighting Championships are not all-out anything goes fights, for the reasons he stated--no gouged eyes, crushed trachea, broken knees. It is an arena where tournament fighters are at a disadvantage (as Dan pointed out) and the Gracie brothers are in their element, for the reasons that Dan mentioned.

In a tournament where all you have to do is make contact, and you are dealing with someone whose techniques and strategies are familiar and similar to yours, an aggressive, first-strike philosophy, gives you the advantage.

In a real (or more realistic) situation the person who strikes first (unless, of course, he takes his opponent completely off guard) places himself at a great disadvantage because of simple physics. The attacker has to cover a certain distance in order to bring his favorite weapons into range. While he is moving into that position, for a brief portion of that movement, he is a projectile in free fall and can't change his trajectory. During that brief moment, someone who has trained to take advantage of that can do all sorts of mischief. And it's amazing how much mishief you can do by simply not being at the receiving end of that trajectory at the moment of expected impact.

Bishop writes:

"I let my guard down. It confirmed my anti-societal views, it made me feel powerful and unique (remember, theres nothing better at corrupting:))and it was so fucking original, or so I thought. I believed so much in my ability to never be wrong about anything that I simply bought it, hat shoes and all. And being being a depressed nihilist, it FELT GOOD to believe in something for a change (I know it sounds tacky but I'm trying to be emotionally honest here.)there is no feeling in the world like HOPE especially for someone who lacks it. Those of us who spend all our energies looking for answers are very susceptible to the possibilities thereof. It's only those who don't have the need for something more in life who don't understand those that fall prey to a bright light like CC (or Heavens Gate, Jonestown, hell, the fucking Masons.)I think I'm babbling here, so Daniel(or Corey, or anyone) tell me what you think."

My experience is similar to yours. I think now that just as we have to question what we thought was true about CC and nagualism, we also have to question whether our original reactions to our received world views were warranted. Like you, I thought that nihilism was the necessary result of the modern scientific world view. I think, now, that it (nihilism) is no more than one of any number of possible responses to that view. The nihilistic interpreations says more about one's state of mind than it does about what the "facts" entail about the significance of life, the universe, and everything.

Lonnie

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Re: Slightly related martial arts thread
From: Bishop
Date: 12/20/99

Lonnie, I agree with you that nihilism (or any other world-view assertion) comes more from ones state-of-mind than any other source. This has become a problem for me recently. I had always thought that I understood the subjectivity of truth, but I never applied that to the philosophies that arise out of subjectivity itself. Simply put, it becomes a matter of psychology rather than philosophy or reason. I'm one of those people who is constantly asserting their world-views to themselves and making what CC would call Didactic Commands :) about myself and the world around me. Recently I've become painfully aware how my entire belief hierarchy not only shifts, but turns itself inside out depending on my mood. I've also noticed it in others as well and I am very suprised I never saw it before. So the question is, are we, and our beloved beliefs, nothing more than life experiences set against the backdrop of dopamine levels and seratonin efficiency? And this may sound ironic, but it is since I let go of the CC mystique that I have moved away from intellectualism and the trappings of thought. It's now that I'm alone that my concerns have honestly shifted from verbal belief strucures (CC and that ilk) to matters of simple well-being, emotional stability and clarity. It's now that I'm more receptive to the idea that I'm a mysterious being inside an unfathomable universe. When I was a TB, I believed I was special, one of the chosen few handpicked by the "spirit" to recieve this knoweldge. How self important can you get? It's now that I know I'm not special, that I'm probably going to die without ever comprehending this harsh and beautiful universe. And although that saddens me, it centers me. I now realize we're only human after all.

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Re: Slightly related martial arts thread
From: erik grafstrom
Date: 12/20/99

Metaphor and story telling is the only vehicle we have to give meaning and understanding to the human condition.

In the early 70's the great film director Bergman, publicly declared in an interview that he now no longer believed in God. I think I read about it in Time and he sounded serious. Wrestling with this question so long throughout his career, Bergman came out with this answer. As a young idealistic student, I was puzzled by it; wanted to know if he was putting on or not?

A year or two later I went to see a Woody Allen film called Love & Death. Not a great film, but I liked Allen's intemittent flashes of humor, long before he personally turned into a grotesque caricature. The film very loosely alludes to the panoramic novel War & Peace. Towards the end of the film Woody is waiting to be executed on some mistaken accusation. He sits in jail confidant that God is going to save him because he is innocent and a believer. God doesn't show up.

As an after word to the film, Woody sticks his face into the camera and talks directly to the viewer. He speaks with an undertone of urgency and anxiety. At the end, he rhetorically asks the question: "does God exist?" His sad clownish face screws up to show true reflection and he makes his reply to Bergman: 'no? I won't say God doesn't exist. Look at him as an 'under achiever' ."In the warmth and darkness of a movie house half -empty on a Tuesday night, with my hand on my girlfriend's thigh beside me, a wonderful, beautiful girl, and in the comforting glow of youth, I sat back laughed my head off.

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Re: Slightly related martial arts thread
From: trixie
Date: 12/20/99

page 45 of "A seth reader" edited by richard roberts gives an excellent "description" of god. i think jane roberts books should be included on the site - btw. carlos could have written every single word from his collection by simply rearranging the seth material.

as an aside - if the teachings were true - it seems to me cc would *never* have jeopardized their authenticity with even the slightest prevarication. because one lie would annul everything in dominoe-like fashion., i.e. if there's one lie - what's to say everything isn't a lie? etc. he would have cared about the veracity of the teachings too much to jeopardize their veracity - or at least I would have - especially if i was to end the line with a golden clasp....

also - we never learned don juan's "real name." sure, we learned 4 names for him - but since he asked carlos never to reveal his real name we must assume he never did. that means either all 4 names are invalid. or the 4 names are valid and there's one left over -the real name carlos called don juan that he was never supposed to reveal. see what i mean?

lastly, i ran into someone in sedona who said he spoke with an indian who said he was the don juan of cc's books. anyone else get dj sightings? just curious.

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Nihilism and the Subjectivity of Truth
From: Cara
Date: 12/22/99

Your post certainly asks some interesting questions. One of the first descriptions I came upon for myself after joining up with CC & Co was that they were nihilistic. I reacted to this realization with both fear and delight. I thought it unique and counter-culture for them to take that stance; a smart approach to the problems of society and self. The fear tied into what this meant in the larger picture of their lives and how they conducted 'business" within the group.

Belief systems do shift with inner and outer changes, moods, endorphin and neurotransmitter levels. We do each own a set of beiefs that form the core of our view, yet many or most of us who have dedicated ourselves to a path of growth leave ourselves open to new understandings and a greater awareness of reality, consciousness. The downside of this "path" is becoming vulnerable to any teaching or practice that can take us further on that journey into the unknown.

I applaud you for letting go of the "intellectualism" and the "trappings of thought" that I see as a defense mechanism against allowing that we don't know, that we aren't special, and in seeing that what matters is emotional stability,well-being and clarity. Congratulations and may you be well and prosper in all aspects of your life!

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Re: Slightly related martial arts thread
From: trixie
Date: 12/20/99

don't forget - so many of us embraced cc during our adolescences - the usa was adolescent to these ideas, as well - and - just remembered - had a "seeing" about all this - that as adolescents the information came to us and was planted - with roots - just like a plant - stationary - but when it matures - it is a bubble of energy with no roots - and leaves the plant behind - truth or lies are of no matter to the ball of energy - it is a mature fruit - with no, uh, hmmmmmm, sort of like memory of what it once was - it metamorphosized - does the butterfly remember itself as a caterpillar? would it be a lie to tell the caterpillar it's going to be a butterfly? no! because the caterpillar is/was a caterpillar - and the butterfly is/was a butterfly. the process of transformation changes everything - and there are no "lies." that process is the magic - and who knows how that happens?

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Re: Slightly related martial arts thread
From: trixie
Date: 12/20/99

i should have said - yes - it would be a lie to tell the caterpillar it would become a butterfly. one is one - and the other is the other - but in this case the word "lie" is wrong. when you "see" everything is in a tranformative process - and how can there be any lies when everything is changing? yet - everything is also uniquely itself during that brief moment of seeing - but not unique at all - because uniqueness is an ego-construct - some words tagged on to describe finality...while one is looking (and forgetting) oh help me - thank god i'm going on vacation!

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Re: Slightly related martial arts thread
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 12/21/99

I think you pegged it exactly. Carlos appeals to someone looking for hope in the confirmation that everything stinks.

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Waiting II
From: John L.
Date: 12/20/99

Another little story from ADC (by permission) Test for Resolve by Clearhead00 Oct 99

Clearhead limps down the street in Shantytown, his leg still smarting a bit from his earlier encounter with Corey's pet bulldog "Crusty". He reaches for a mint, but his pockets are so full of rocks that...

Suddenly through the swinging doors of the Saloon, a figure flies out and nearly crashes into Clearhead! A loud angry voice calls from the Bar "AND DON'T COME BACK TILL YOU TAKE A BATH..WITH SOAP" Clearhead has feline-like agility from weeks of Tensegrity practice, and it saves him from yet another injury. Clearhead looks at the figure lying there in the dusty, lonely street, a man, a drunk, dirty, disgus....Clearhead jumps back in horror as he recognizes the man! "My God Randy! Look at you! What happened to you?" Randy sits up and releases a long, liquid belch... Clearhead still can't believe it...."Randy, shit man, I looked up to you, lots of people did, you...you were my IDOL!...First you start to hang out with those SA people, and now this! Was it the SA's Randy? Did they do this to you?"

Randy coughs up a greenie, blows his nose on his shirt, and says "Hey man, you got a cigarette?" Randy makes a mark in the dirt that looks like this :) and passes out....

Clearhead flips him the half pack of Marlboros he's carried for the last two years since he quit, turns and walks away, shaken, saddened, but somehow stronger...

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Waiting III
From: John L.
Date: 12/20/99

Again from ADC, Oct. 30,1999 by permission of author, Test for Fervor by Clearhead00

Clearhead saunters down the street in Shantytown, as he rounds the corner he sees a small but growing crowd. As he gets closer he sees a man in the middle of the crowd standing on something waving his arms wildly in the air as he speaks to the crowd. Nearing the commotion, Clearhead realizes the speaker is the famous Reverend Corey of the Church of Sustained Action! Reverend Corey is really wound up today, the spittle flies as he works up to full rant. Standing at the back of the crowd now, Clearhead realizes that the heavy doses of Prozac Rev Corey had to take to control his rant during his recent Tent Revival tour of Ixtlan may be taking their toll now. Clearhead knows Rev Corey needs many converts to buy his books, to cover the expenses of the Church of Sustained Action website, because Rev Corey's other profession, that of So California lawyer, only pays just above that of Ragpicker. Clearhead can feel the tension in the crowd as they become more and more focused on Rev Corey's every word, oblivious to everything else around them. In his high, thin voice Clearhead yells out "If Carlos had sex with YOU and made YOU a Tensegrity Instructor, you'd be busy designing T shirts for the next workshop now, and there wouldn't even BE a Church of Sustained Action!" Reverend Corey can't believe it! His face turns even redder as he screams, "THERE HE IS, THE SEMI-LITERATE ASSHOLE TROUBLEMAKER I TOLD YOU ABOUT! GET HIMMMM!!! Clearhead reaches in his pocket for a rock as he turns to run, he hadn't seen Crusty the bulldog sneak up behind him.

He trips over the dog,

he goes down.....

several hours later...

Clearhead finally reaches a nearby irrigation canal after dragging himself through the six miles of peyote desert that surround Shantytown. He uses the foul smelling water to wash some of the encrusted blood from his eyes and mouth. Luckily for Clearhead, he remembered to totally lose control of his bowels during the beating to disperse the crowd, or it would have been much worse. His legs worthless, he uses his one good arm and sits up against a dead Datura tree. He looks back toward Shantytown, he has a short coughing fit, he spits out some blood, he speaks, "My body may be broken, but you'll never break my spirit" "I'll be back"

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TO GREG
From: daniel
Date: 12/20/99

ive read the exchange about energy predation, and i am definately an energy preditor. with the way things are, i feel forced to be, although i would truly like to find a better way. i agree 100% with everything you said about this to the fellow you were posting to, but i would really like to hear what you have to say about escaping this way of being. i am truly serious about this, so please be as detailed as possible. so far ,my own thinking says there is no way to escape it. you said something to the effect of in order for dragon to survive in his way of being ,it had to be at the expense of some one else, what about when you wash your hands with antibacterial soap? in order for you to not get viruses and die or whatever ,you must kill bacteria with the soap, which im sure feels about as good to them as salt appears to feel to a slug. i promise you none of this was intended as an attack on what you said , i would truly love to not hurt others yet still be fullfilled myself, i just dont know how. tell me what you know about great scavenger! (i truly mean that in awesome respect, as from when i first discovered the books, 8 or so years ago, had i known that some guy was going to dig the mans garbage in the future ,and i would have the opportunity to read about it, i would have been stupidly ecstatic. once again, thank you for the wonderful service you have provided) and also, how bout a full comprehensive account and more from the videos and pictures on your website. gracias ,daniel

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Re: TO GREG
From: greggabi@aol.com
Date: 12/21/99

There is more than one kind of predation. When I eat a string bean... I am predating on the energy of that string bean. We attempt germ genocide for the sake of hygiene and health.

(Being a vegetarian deals only partially with predation. You don't kill the chicken to eat the egg, yet you still are eating its energy. Eating fruit does not kill the tree, yet its energy is being consumed nonetheless.)

So let's set these aside... I honestly do not know how to deal with them besides growing string beans and eating them.

The emotional provocation amongst humans is something which has always struck me as beneath us, more like apes than humans. Something or someone upsets us, so we upset others trying to get back what we lost... Why?

A dear friend, Arlyn, who I used to work for many years once told me that all of our problems came from one thing:

The NEED to be angry.

This doing to others exactly what was done to us perpetuates the movement of an emotional energy wave that behaves like an entity as it continues its existence... and so it does by passing through millions of people as they emotionally provoke each other. I bet that some of these waves are are thousands of years old and have been around this world many times. They "use" us up and toss us away like when you blow your nose with a tissue. They feed on the emotional energy we give off as we are provoking others trying to get the energy they give off... and they feed on that, too! This obviously does not work very well for us... but why do we persist in trying to win a game that is already rigged against us?

I believe that we try because the thoughts that run through our head provoke us emotionally FIRST... when we react to them we lose energy... THEN we act out on those thoughts to provoke others trying to reclaim what we lost... which further feeds that emotional wave at BOTH our expense AND at the expense of others.

Emotion seems powerful because we see the tremendous amount of energy... as it LEAVES us... as we LOSE it. Then I see a "powerful" person... I just see a bucket with a hole in it and water leaking out.

I'm not used to writing so many words at one time... but I'll continue some more later, if you are still interested.

Greg

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Re: What Info Do You Require?
From:
Date: 12/21/99

Could you explain please why you have mentioned that you believe Florinda or Taisha would have committed suicide? From my understanding you say they are frauds. If they are frauds then they know all along that no one is going to die anything but completely ordinary death. So it would come as no surprise. So what would be the reason to kill themselves?

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Re: What Info Do You Require?
From: Linda Zoontjens
Date: 12/21/99

>>Could you explain please why you have mentioned that you believe Florinda or Taisha would have committed suicide?>>

Florinda kept in touch with her mother regularly during all the time she was with Castaneda. After Castaneda died, she discontinued contact.

>>From my understanding you say they are frauds. If they are frauds then they know all along that no one is going to die anything but completely ordinary death. So it would come as no surprise. So what would be the reason to kill themselves?>>

Being heartbroken that someone whom they depended upon for guidance was gone?

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Re: how to get on with your life
From: D. is for Dargarpon
Date: 12/21/99

a genuine post for a second.......

Actually reading a few more things from people like Linda I am more apt to believe that the whole thing is a load of B*****x. The trouble is that with the whole SA scene going on, it makes you want to pewk the way that ego's are tripping out on themselves. So keep the straight talking coming and you might get others convinced that the whole thing was a con.

trouble for me is, that I know about these things from other sources so telling me that Carlos is a fake doesnt make a damn bit of difference to where i have been and what i have seen. even if Carlos was a fraud, it is all still feasible and possible.

i have been in dreams and been in the world at the same time. You cant explain heightened awareness, and if you ask me, the nagual is here already, he just doesnt know it coz he thinks the world lied to him, all he has to do is remember some of what he has been taught.

now, back to being an asshole.......

GREG! COREY! put 'em up.

D.

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New Naghual Conspiracy
From: D. for Detective
Date: 12/21/99

maybe the best scam is the one that is being pulled today. since all the truths have been thrown out of the water and the public couldn't really handle it, Carlos wasted all his energy by f**king up with the 7th principle to the art of stalking, and drained his energy by falling foul of the public focus.

So the new nagual is covering up his tracks by creating a smoke screen.

now that is a conspiracy. but a smart one, because you dont want to make the same mistake that Carlos did.

good move, someone shut me up before I give the game away and start an action group.

D.

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When you se the Nagual on the road, kill him!
From: Badger
Date: 12/21/99

One of the major challenges that presents itself as we travel our "path with heart" is getting past the roadblocks and potholes in our way. One of the major barriers of self-learning is our attachment to the perceptions of others.

We are attached to the perceptions of others to guide us, and we look to them for our empowerment. This is an illusion.

"When you see the Buddha on the road, kill him," goes the saying. Following the Buddha's perception (or the Nagual's) will only give you an illusionary empowerment. You must experience your own perception and travel your own path.

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Re: When you se the Nagual on the road, kill him!
From: sven
Date: 12/22/99

the potholes and roadblocks have not bothered me too much this far, most of the punishment has been absorbed by the suspension of my vehicle. I am pulling over to the side of the road. I intend to get out and start walking.

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Women's workshop
From:
Date: 12/21/99

Does anyone have notes from the women's workshop held this month?

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Re: Women's workshop
From: Linda Zoontjens
Date: 12/22/99

Reprinted with Permission:

From: Gina Hagg

i decided not to attend the February 12 workshop. I know the trackers are improvising. And I have fears about that.

i am afraid next magical pass they are gonna teach us will be to pee lifting right leg up while standing. Hayley will say a poem in gratitude about the moonlight on our tushes waking it up. Nury's message will be that we are touching sublime through our pee. Nyei will tell us the significance of the movements.. Inhale as you contract your tract and exhale to pee it all out. We are letting left body take control of peeing since right body has always had monopoly, we are letting infinity descend on our little tushes raising the awareness from our toes to our tush level and activating our tush to be the navigator..We are hushing our right tush by letting it think that it has done all the work all our lives and now is higher than the left tush. The breeze which comes in as we pee is the infinity, it is of a blue hue. The sound of your pee is Olinda's song calling the infinity to wake up your tush. You buzz until all the pee comes out. Then shake once to the left first with the left leg, then to the right so that the last drop will take with it all the unwanted feelings back to the infinity. The last thing they will say is not to wipe it. We will have to use a sponge instead. That's okay for you guys but i have to wipe after i pee.

I am afraid i will do it and look rather silly. And i will have to get into endless arguments with Germans about how many inches was the right foot off the floor and whether the tush was sticking out, in or in the middle, or whether the hand was fisted, or open fanning the tush or do we gaze into infinity as if it pulls us in (that one would be hard, the relief from peeing always gets me since i hold it for the longest time possible.)

No, i have lots of objections. Call me a coward and a self-concious, vain female. i just won't pee that way. oops, there goes freedom.

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Re: Women's workshop
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 12/23/99

Don't forget the part where you pee on your hand and flick it up in the air on the people near by. Didn't la Gorda already do that pass?

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Waiting IV
From: John L.
Date: 12/21/99

More humor from ADC, Oct 31, 99 Test for Alone by Clearhead00

Clearhead watches the buzzards circle overhead, it's not much of a show, but when you've been alone in the middle of a 500 square mile peyote desert for a few days, it doesn't take much to capture your attention.

His body has begun to mend from the severe beating he received in Shantytown from the Church of Sustained Action mob. Still unable to stand, Clearhead spends his days watching the buzzards watching him. He sits by a dead datura tree, daydreaming of food(mostly his favorite, Tex-Mex).

He sighs...

Suddenly there's a dust cloud in the distance, as Clearhead watches this new thing it comes closer until he can see it's a man on a ATV, it turns slightly and comes straight at him! The man stops a few feet away, the man is wearing the baggiest shorts and the biggest sombrero Clearhead has ever seen!

The man speaks,

"I'm Mojave George! You must be the semi-literate asshole troublemaker I heard about! I guess I heard right about what those SA fanatics did to you! I think you look like shit! I got something I want to give you though"( Clearhead thinks FOOD, ANTISEPTIC, FOOD, BANDAGES, FOOD, SUNSCREEN, FOOD!) "I want you to know, I brought you some ADVICE! I think you shouldn't let yourself become a victim, and I know I said this before, buy stock in AOL!" Mojave George starts up the ATV. Clearhead has recently figured out the first part, the hard way, and of course bought MSPG at 38 and is losing his ass, but says, "Ah, thanks a lot mister, thanks for coming out to see me".

"Don't mention it" Mojave George says "I wasn't looking for you anyway, I was looking for Cat and Wings, I guess some assholes hurt their feelings and they ran off again. I..." His words are lost in the roar of the engine as he races back across the desert, still talking...Alone again, Clearhead feels a little better after the visit, at least he THINKS he had a visitor... There's not much to eat in this peyote desert except, well...peyote. Clearhead decides to celebrate his exciting day and have that scorpion he caught this morning for dessert.

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Re: Waiting IV
From: Lonnie
Date: 12/21/99

"He sits by a dead datura tree"

Now we know where "clearhead's" peyote desert is located.

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Waiting V
From: John L.
Date: 12/21/99

From ADC Nov. 2 99 (by permission) Test for a Fitting Farewell by Clearhead00

Clearhead limps, badly, down the street in Shantytown.

He's been back in town for a few days now.

It's been almost six months since the beating by the Church of Sustained Action mob.

No one recognized him, no one remembered.

Clearhead looks different, Clearhead is different.

Six months alone in the desert, the only shelter a small dead datura tree, living on a diet of sand, scorpions and peyote, will change a person.

It's just before first light, the streets are empty, the only movement a couple of Rats going through some trash cans.

When he reaches the water well in the center of town, Clearhead climbs up quickly, pulls down his pants, and takes a huge 'holding it for three days, $6.99 ALL YOU CAN EAT TEX-MEX' shit in the well.

Clearhead limps on out of town toward the mountains.

He finds the cliff he saw in the visions,

and throws himself into the abyss,

and wakes up...

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RE:TO GREG
From: daniel
Date: 12/21/99

greg, you are doing a beautiful job so far. the thing about the emotion form cycling through humanity through the years is really something. ive believed that it is something akin to a virus in our program or something to that effect. i do not think it is possible to escape predation all together , but i do agree with what you say about the emotional level of it. but how would you stop the cycle within yourself without withering. what would take its place as an energy source. but do finish any line of thought you had ,because the info you gave was superb. i just wonder if were not trapped anyway, because no matter what, we are always unaware of some harm we are causing on some level. gracious ,daniel

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TO DANIEL...
From: greggabi@aol.com
Date: 12/23/99

Hi Daniel,

(laughing) You sure don't have to look very far to see the predatory universe at work...for it is happening right HERE, right NOW in this forum.

Just look at all the provoking language and infantile name calling going on... ALL in the futile attempt to get back lost energy at the expense of someone elses energy. You can SEE the ones most infected with the "virus". (you made a very good description)

People who do not have enough energy because they lost it through responding to provokation... HAVE to try to provoke others in an attempt to get back what they lost. It seems to mean life for them... but it is ONLY life for what moves through them, because THEY are being used up in the process, as they try to use up others.

Now that I probably have beat to death the description of the predatory universe... what can we do? How do we survive in the midst of this "Planet of the Apes" WITHOUT surviving at some one elses expense?

Give up the goodies... and whither for a while. Is only SEEMS like dying to give up the process.

This is because of the ILLUSION that the predatory process GIVES you life. NOBODY would continue to be emotional predators on each other if they REALLY SAW what they were feeding themselves to.

To the extent you give up being an emotional predator by giving up trying to provoke others... to that EXACT extent you will no longer be the prey for other emotional predators who try to provoke you.

THIS is the ticket to freedom from the predatory universe. By giving up the opportunities to get energy from others... you become immune from anyone getting energy from you.

It is really quite simple. I have yet to see anything truthful that is not simple.

Complication comes from trying to justify the rotten things we do to each other, to support the illusion that it is the only way to survive.

It is the LITTLE things we do to each other that matter. They are where it begins BEFORE escalating into bigger things.

This forum is a great place to observe the predatory universe in action, because NONE of the predators are aware of what they are doing, because they are so BUSY predating upon others.

I am sure you can already see this process... and when you see for yourself... you begin to understand... and that understanding begins to lift you out of the process... to understand more... which lifts you out more...

Once this begins... it continues of its own momentum... and you get to come along for the ride to freedom from the predatory universe... all the while living in the midst of it...

And this is the trick... not to run away from it... but to face it, and be free from it...even though it is all around you.

It if fun trying to find words to describe... but remember that this IS JUST a description... there are lots of other ways to describe the predatory universe... but there is only ONE way out.

Give up the goodies... : )

Greg

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