Sustained Reaction


Sustained Reaction Archive - Page 14

Archive Message Index

Clash of the titans, skirmish of the midgets. From: Huitzilopochtli Date: 12/17/99
Re: Clash of the titans, skirmish of the midgets. From: Lonnie Date: 12/17/99
Philosophical options... From: Huitzolpochtli Date: 12/19/99
Re: Clash of the titans, skirmish of the midgets. From: Vidette Date: 12/17/99
Re: Clash of the titans, skirmish of the midgets. From: Daniel Lawton Date: 12/18/99
Re: TO DIANA From: Lonnie Date: 12/17/99
Dreaming together fantasies From: Daniel Lawton Date: 12/18/99
Women and sex trading From: Daniel Lawton Date: 12/18/99
Re: Women and sex trading From: Jason Mooney Date: 12/18/99
Re: Women and sex trading From: Daniel Lawton Date: 12/20/99
Re: Women and sex trading From: Leonard Zimmerman Date: 12/18/99
Re: Women and sex trading From: Anabelle Date: 12/20/99
Cara, Diana Doesn't Understand Some Things From: Leonard Zimmerman Date: 12/18/99
Re: Cara, Diana Doesn't Understand Some Things From: JG Date: 12/18/99
Re: Cara, Diana Doesn't Understand Some Things From: JG from Left Field Date: 12/20/99
Re: Cara, Diana Doesn't Understand Some Things From: Corey Date: 12/21/99
Re: Cara, Diana Doesn't Understand Some Things From: Date: 12/21/99
Re: Cara, Diana Doesn't Understand Some Things From: Corey Donovan Date: 12/21/99
Re: Cara, Diana Doesn't Understand Some Things From: Date: 12/21/99
Re: Cara, Diana Doesn't Understand Some Things From: Corey Donovan Date: 12/23/99
An Explanation From: Cara Date: 12/19/99
Re: An Explanation From: Leonard Zimmerman Date: 12/19/99
Re: An Explanation From: Daniel Lawton Date: 12/20/99
Re: An Explanation From: Cara Date: 12/20/99
Perhaps From: Maybe Date: 12/18/99
Re: Perhaps From: ixtlan@eleutheria.com Date: 12/19/99
Re: Perhaps From: Daniel Lawton Date: 12/19/99
Re: Perhaps From: trixie Date: 12/20/99
Re: Perhaps From: Daniel Lawton Date: 12/21/99
Matrix, magic tricks From: Trixie Date: 12/19/99
Re: Matrix, magic tricks From: Date: 12/19/99
Re: Matrix, magic tricks From: Leonard Zimmermen Date: 12/19/99
Re: Matrix, magic tricks From: Daniel Lawton Date: 12/21/99
Re: Matrix, magic tricks From: diana Date: 12/20/99
Re: Matrix, magic tricks From: Leonard Zimmerman Date: 12/20/99
Re: Matrix, magic tricks From: diana Date: 12/20/99
Re: Matrix, magic tricks From: Leonard Zimmerman Date: 12/21/99
Waiting From: John L. Date: 12/19/99
warm cheeks From: trixie Date: 12/19/99
Re: warm cheeks From: greggabi@aol.com Date: 12/19/99
Re: warm cheeks From: Daniel Lawton Date: 12/20/99

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Clash of the titans, skirmish of the midgets.
From: Huitzilopochtli
Date: 12/17/99

Initially, two options exists, as far as I can see, relative to "putting on an attitude" when confronted with the work of Carlos Castaneda and/or his cohorts, be they whoever they are.

1. The man is an author, a writer of fiction, and in the course of his writing, he has invented several fictional characters to make up a narrative about shamanistical practices in Mexico the way the COULD have been. I.e., CC is a "liar", relative to a strict, empirical interpretation of the field material.

2. Carlos Castaneda was accepted as an apprentice into a shamanistical tradition in Mexico, dating back to precolumbian times. His books are a biographical work on the course of his apprenticeship. He tells "the truth", relative to what happened to him over the years.

A dochotomy thus forms. Lie? Truth? The question may not even have any satisfactory answer, as most people is aware of the basic flaw in a black-and-white dichotomy, that there are various shades of gray that in the end turns out to be "the truth".

But a more interesting take is: What about YOU?

Carlos Castaneda has millions of readers. Most of them are your normal John and Jane Doe, some are outright hippies, other are mentally disturbed people. Many of them WANT to beleive, they desire oh so much to be saved from this hellish world with all its mundane chores. These latter types are your typical "sect victims". Please note that a major ingredient of "sect behaviour" is angry refusal/denial after the victim has realized that the sect can not "cure him from death" or whatever is his desire, initially. Such angry refusal/denial seems to be a major ingredient on the sustainedactin site.

It really shouldnt matter to anybody whether alernative 1 or 2 is cognitively "true", relative to Carlos Castaneda. Personally, I have opted for neither - or both. And by this I mean that the figure "Carlos Castaneda" is of no interest. His books are great stories - but they wont do anything for me that I couldnt have done without them. I find this blanket-lifting, "outing" kind of behaviour to be disgusting, but at the same time, there is a lot of interesting information to be found on this site (SA). However, a certain degree of sobriety would do better than the type of fanatical "anti-Castanedaism" that oozes of vehemence and petty self-pity.

Signed: (Vidar)

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Re: Clash of the titans, skirmish of the midgets.
From: Lonnie
Date: 12/17/99

Vidar writes:

"Initially, two options exists, as far as I can see, relative to "putting on an attitude" when confronted with the work of Carlos Castaneda and/or his cohorts, be they whoever they are.

1. The man is an author, a writer of fiction, and in the course of his writing, he has invented several fictional characters to make up a narrative about shamanistical practices in Mexico the way the COULD have been. I.e., CC is a "liar", relative to a strict, empirical interpretation of the field material.

2. Carlos Castaneda was accepted as an apprentice into a shamanistical tradition in Mexico, dating back to precolumbian times. His books are a biographical work on the course of his apprenticeship. He tells "the truth", relative to what happened to him over the years."

Actually, more options than two exist. Many more.

1) "The man is an author, a writer of fiction, and in the course of his writing, he has invented several fictional characters to make up a narrative about shamanistical practices in Mexico the way the COULD have been." And he claimed that his writings present his apprenticeship "into a shamanistical tradition in Mexico, dating back to precolumbian times. His books are a biographical work on the course of his apprenticeship."

I.E. He is (a)a "liar", relative to a strict, empirical interpretation of the field material, and (b) a liar (without quotation marks), according to a strict empirical interpretation of the notion that the claim that one is telling the truth when one is "lying" constitutes lying (without quotation marks).

There are many other possible combinations of truth valuation that you could extract from all of this.

The interesting question is why are so many people so bothered when someone points out that...

(a) there is no scenario in which Carlos Castaneda told the truth about everything.

(b) many of the things that Carlos told have simply not been verified by anyone outside his innermost circle--of whom all but one have disappeared.

Some things are either true or false; others (attitudes, feelings, aesthetic intuitions, along those lines) don't always lend themselves to truth valuation.

Whether or not I'm in New Jersey or New Zealand or New Hampshire or New Mexico at this moment...this is a fact that's either true or false.

Carlos was an apprentice of some don Juan or he wasn't. Maybe there was some old indian he used to talk to. Maybe there was no such person at all.

"Shades of grey" applies much more often to value judgments than it does to questions of truth in principle. There may be shades of grey in terms of the degree of confidence that one has that something is either true or false. But that's really another matter.

Lonnie

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Philosophical options...
From: Huitzolpochtli
Date: 12/19/99

Am I ever excited over this answer! Two more replies are attached too, but this one is, for me personally, the most interesting. I have pondered about the possibility that Carlos was immensely well read in philosophy - and thus was able to construct a cognitive system coined "nagualism". That is, at best, a very meagre explenation, but it is something the rational mind can accept.

However, I would like to point out the fact that there is nothing scientifical that opposes the claims of Mr.Castaneda. Have a peek into the bizarre universe of quantum mechanics, and you will soon find that this (and all the others) world is a lot less solid than our senses wants us to beleive. According to quantum mechanics, there exists a "virtual superspace" of which this 3-dimensional timespace is but "a slice".

Considering the claim from science, that they need a fifth elemental, natural law to make sense in relativism and quantum mechanics, it seems to be a wise choice to try a model in which "intent" constitutes this mysterious, fifth force. (The others are stronger and lesser nuclear forces, electromagnetism and gravity.)

Anyway, hardly any contemporary philosopher acknowledges the "objectivist" claim that the phenomena that surrounds us is correctly interpreted by sensory perception alone. If nothing else, Carlos Castaneda popularized this elementary view.

There is an old, "hermetical magical" tradition known as the alchemists. One of the prime works, known as "The emerald tablet of Hermes Trimestigus" states that AS ABOVE, SO BELOW. To align this with quantum mechanics, one might state that AS BELOW, SO ABOVE, and claim that mankind has magical abilities that is hardly ever utilized by "the public" as such.

One thing is crucial though, and Carlos mentioned that much: The human race is about to drown in its own filth. A basic change, in an evolutionary sense, is needed. What would this change be? The "superhuman" of Friedrich Nietzsche isnt such a bad guess. I.e., its the "software" that has to change, the human body is fine as it is. The tonal of the times, so to speak, (Zeitgeist) is deeply traumatized - and in order to evolve, the human individual (yes, YOU!) has to undertake a major, psychological metamorphosis.

How should this be done in a pragmatical manner? I´ll be damned if I know!Its a question every man and woman on this earth need to ask themselves, daily. ANYTHING that expands the awareness is for the better.

And thats all I have to say.

Signed: (Vidar)

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Re: Clash of the titans, skirmish of the midgets.
From: Vidette
Date: 12/17/99

Why does it bother you what people on this list say, do, or think, since you have figured this "Carlos thing" out for yourself?

One of the reasons for the intense and deeper struggle of the people here might very well be the fact that they had actual personal contact with Carlos. If you had two uncles, one you heard of only in stories, the other one molested you as a child, I believe you would have different feelings for both.

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Re: Clash of the titans, skirmish of the midgets.
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 12/18/99

I believe that trying to bring down his group is the only way we're going to find out what was really at the bottom of it. Carlos was certainly in possession of the ability to access altered states of some kind. I'd like to know how he developed that ability over the years. Close up eye witness accounts, void of the cult reverence, are the only way I can think of to find that out. But getting those would require a break up of cleargreen so that people who were closest to him felt free to act as individuals and came to the realization of that an honest account isn't necessarily going to make him look good. Right now they can't be honest because it would hurt their position in the heirachy, their pocket book, and their fantasy.

Let me say again, Carlos did know something. I'd like to know where he learned it. Maybe it was from eating a lot of datura. He had complicated recipies for cookies, soup, jelly, all using datura. I ate that stuff one time, and I can tell you it's really powerful. Eating it multiple times could really mess you up. But it also might give you insight of some kind.

Or the positive alternative: Carlos had such a powerful mind that he willed himself into silence, systematically investigated it, and came up with a map or sorts on his own.

Everyone would like to know which it is, from true believer to debunker. But the true believers aren't willing to do what it takes to find out because they're still hanging on to the group atmosphere.

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Re: TO DIANA
From: Lonnie
Date: 12/17/99

Re: TO DIANA From: Point Date: 12/13/99
" Linda:

How could you feel this way if you hadn't worked through the Cleargreen issues? Do you owe them or CC anything for your new found freedom? It is your life, you bought the package and then you worked through and discovered it was bullshit. I'm sorry, but it is obvious that the SA group couldn't handle CC's perceived misbehavior in this ordinary reality. It is not surprising there is no proof of even one event of non-ordinary reality; conventional reality was too difficult to understand. I don't mean to be an apologist for CC but SA's vehemence requires the suspension of critical thinking or openness toward CC and Cleargreen and a complete acceptance of their pov. Why would anyone who likes the books and gets something intuitively real out of them just walk away based on SA's analysis, or necessarily believe you. With apologies to those who are sick of the same old questions and rehashing the same issues, it is because they haven't been resolved yet."

Just thought I'd mention that there is no "SA Group" if by that you mean a group of people who stand as one in both their reactions to and views about CC and Company, their teachings, activities, and abilities. Therefore phrases like "SA's vehemence" or "SA's analysis" or "the SA group couldn't handle CC's perceived misbehavior" refer to something that doesn't exist--not unlike so many phrases and assertions one reads.

Lonnie

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Dreaming together fantasies
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 12/18/99

During the course of the time when Carlos was with us it was common for people to have dreams containing Carlos, the witches, or the people inside cleargreen. It was even common for people to dream about people close to cleargreen, or whom they'd seen associated with cleargreen, such as the people who guarded doors at workshops.

People talked about these dreams. To each other, in practice groups, at dinner, on the phone. The reports from one practice group would spread to another.

Inside cleargreen there were also such speculations, but under the pressure of Carlos and the witches. People didn't openly discuss such things because the dangers of making a mistake were demotion or ridicule.

I was hot for any incidence that could be documented or proven to be group dreaming. You couldn't have found a more eager audience for any such information.

Honestly, there were none, except for the occasional nutcase that everyone stayed away from, including cleargreen. Discounting the people who claimed right from the start to be fabulous sorcerers, the rest of the accounts of dreaming together were weak at best.

The strongest example I heard of was from 2 young energy trackers who made a deliberate effort to go in to dreaming, in the same room, and had relatively the same dream. But it wasn't provable to be anything more than a good starting place to try from. Nothing at all like the accounts of dreaming together in Carlos' books. That should be the standard afterall.

Our sunday practice group tried a couple of times to do group dreaming. On both occasions about 4 to 6 people in the class successfully got in to dreaming, but not together. There were no accounts of conversations or exchanges of information of any kind. Nothing at all like the accounts from Carlos' books.

In sunday classes and at workshops there were a few occasions when someone was called upon to give a Carlos scripted speech about dreaming. In all cases that I heard, and I attended nearly every workshop, the story wasn't about the kind of dreaming together from Carlos' books, instead it was about the love someone felt for Carol Tiggs, or for the blue scout, a love which produced an altered state of perception.

Carlos himself would have welcomed any proof of dreaming together. He tried several times to come up with a supernatural doing for the sunday class. His attempts included the paralyzed leg trick, Carol Tigg's hypnotic eye, and attempt to manifest an object, and some techniques for "seeing" inorganic beings. All were complete flops, when compared to the doings in his books. Thus is isn't reasonable to assume there were "secret" dreaming together successes inside cleargreen. Carlos would have jumped on those incidences and related them over and over again to the sunday class.

As far as the multitude of dreams people experienced which contained cleargreen figures, they just didn't add up. On any given day you could probably station Carlos or one of the witches in at least several dozen dreams, requiring them to be in 10 or 20 places at the same time. Someone point blank asked them about this and they said it was just an ordinary dream, they weren't there. We were so desperite for success back then that people started to come up with the explanation that maybe it really happened but even Carlos and the witches didn't remember.

Probably the biggest fantasy, or success if you like, was that a large group of people started to dream about a collective practice place, and some of the details seemed to match. But if you analyzed the eagerness with which people compared notes to find common details you wouldn't have anything that even remotely stacked up to the accounts of the characters in Carlos books.

Keep this in mind, becasue the yahoos are out there re-inventing the past to give themselves a bigger share of the sorcery pie. Or maybe they're not yahoos, maybe they've figured out the real secret. Sorcery is just making up anything you like to get yourself attention. You gain enough "energy" when you no longer care who you hurt with your lies.

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Women and sex trading
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 12/18/99

I found Anabelle's reply to my question about why Carlos' sexual escapades bothered the women less than the men interesting. I'm naive about women and their actual feelings on sex.

So I just wanted to summarize what I understood, so that the response didn't get completely buried and overlooked.

My understanding is that women are used to having sex available to them as a bargaining tool, or as an advantage of some kind. Rather than offend them, they actually like it when it works to their advantage. Thus they don't mind trading it in order to gain something, such as a better position inside cleargreen. It is in fact what they expect to happen, even if the person in charge (Carlos) claims to have transcended that trading activity.

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Re: Women and sex trading
From: Jason Mooney
Date: 12/18/99

Every Friday night on one of our local stations there is a cult doco. Last night was on the children of God sect (The Family). The central guru, who is dead now, advocated free sex. And this was the way he gained followers; the women were the bait, and very willing bait. It was all in the old testament, of course. This guy was positively convinced that God wanted it that way, and they were a big cult. He was never convicted of allegations of sexual improprieties as far as I could make out, and the sect is growing stronger after some years in decline. The way those women sold the bible was very weird. Jason

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Re: Women and sex trading
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 12/20/99

One of the things I noticed from studying the bible (at Carlos' recomendation) was that sex wasn't such a big sin afterall. The idea that it is comes from misunderstandings and mistranslations of the concept of "idolatry" which is often translated into "whoredom". It's interesting because the bible equates worshiping false things with sexual attraction, and a common event within cults is the mixing up of sexual attraction and whatever teaching the group is in to. That's what went on inside cleargreen, and does to this day as the sexual relationships there continue.

I believe it's called "transference".

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Re: Women and sex trading
From: Leonard Zimmerman
Date: 12/18/99

Annabelle wrote:

>>The women who were introduced to Carlos knew that it was not for their "magical potential" or their sorceric abilities (dreaming, stalking etc.), but their mere female attraction that got them in and close. And just as Fabrizio said, there is no game without the Nagual - meaning Castaneda, to be porked by the top guy established a hierarchy of positions of importance, similar to the researched behaviours in primate societies.>>

Are you certain that the women only thought that their mere female attraction was what got them in and close? I am asking this because I had always assumed that the women were told that they had latent abilities which only Castaneda could "see" that made them so special. My impression was that it was only after they had been sufficiently brainwashed that they would have had sex with him. It seems that the so called "witches" were supportive of this activity. However, if it is true that they *knew* that they were only pieces of ass to please the Nagual, why on earth would anyone want to rely on their judgment for anything? Itís also ironic how Castaneda would go on and on about how we were just like apes and how he was like that himself.Dan wrote:

>>My understanding is that women are used to having sex available to them as a bargaining tool, or as an advantage of some kind. Rather than offend them, they actually like it when it works to their advantage. Thus they don't mind trading it in order to gain something, such as a better position inside cleargreen. It is in fact what they expect to happen, even if the person in charge (Carlos) claims to have transcended that trading activity.>>

Sure, women can use sex as a bargaining tool, but not all women want to do that, especially in an employer - employee relationship. It is one of the reasons that sexual harassment laws are on the books. In my opinion, women who trade sex for a higher position in the pecking order and baubles are not people with whom I want to spend a lot of quality time. I mean how shallow can you get? It is bound to engender jealousy, mistrust, resentment and if everyone is playing grabass all the time, how likely are they to be to do any sort of "dreaming" or "seeing"? I made a statement to one of the trackers once about internal silence once and I knew from her cult babble reply that she didnít have a clue as to what I was talking about.In addition, for the one tracker who appears to have been employed as a sex worker before entering the ranks of Cleargreen, it may have actually been something that saved her life. My understanding is that it is a perilous profession and one never knows when some freak is going to cut you up into small pieces and use you for fish food. The fact of the matter is, I donít care if all of the women were previously employed as assistant crack whores, working 12th Avenue and 27th Street in Manhattan. My concern is that Castaneda and his entourage of "witches" used the opportunity of a better life within the Cleargreen fold as long as the women were willing to provide sexual favors.Unfortunately, the end result is that the same dysfunctional behavior that they learned from CC & Co. continues to be how they interact with each other. Cara explained earlier how they were changing the rules all of the time and how condescending they were with the underlings. I have seen this behavior myself when one of the "management" jumped down one of the younger trackerís throat for making an accounting mistake during registration. Iíve had a phone conversation with one of original "chacmools" about preparing for a workshop and she sneered at me for being so cheerful. A friend of mine questioned one of the original "chacmools" about changes in the Affection passes which he had seen in a previous workshop and she almost tore his nametag off.You know, Sybils are a dime a dozen where I live. If I need a Sybil fix, all I need to do is take a ride on the subway downtown and I will meet at least two before I get to my destination. I donít think they are "stalking" either. I keep expecting to meet Taisha, but I think if I had a tax free income of $100,000 per year, that I would probably be stalking some nice tropical paradise somewhere, not running around in rags begging for change.

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Re: Women and sex trading
From: Anabelle
Date: 12/20/99

The women I knew were not selfinflated by the belief in their magical powers. Carlos picked them out of a crowd. They had blue eyes, a certain height and beauty in common. Carlos called them up and told them that they were the long awaited saviors of their group; when he had built them up enough, he approached them with the subject of sex. Since he knew them by then pretty well, he probably used a personalized phrase to get them into bed (like fixing energy holes, shamanic penetration were mentioned). Just like in any relationship sex is used as glue. Maybe there are other motivations, but we just have to wait till the first book comes out (everybody is typing frantically in the background). Carlos might have experienced a glutt of opportunities and decided to use sex for his own energetic renewal.

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Cara, Diana Doesn't Understand Some Things
From: Leonard Zimmerman
Date: 12/18/99

Hi Cara,

Since I've sort of "got" the picture of what has been going on at Cleargreen, perhaps you may (or may not) be interested in clearing up a few things for Diana.

You should be warned that even after you explain anything, that Diana will look for the smallest minutiae with which to find fault. That may (or may not) discourage you from bothering to reply.

I do find it fascinating that she finds the Superpussy Speech a perfectly logical interchange between a several thousand year old being and Carol Tiggs.

**********

Diana wrote:

I looked at Cara's posts again. One is a rather sensitive response about guitar playing. The other post is extremely confusing to me. Cara titles the post "Real abuse from C.C. and company". Then she starts off by saying that it's a post TO S.A., that she posted about the goings on at Tigre. I don't belong to either one of those lists, so I know very little about what was posted to them. And she is not posting her whole post even. So, when she starts off saying "Although I was with them pre-Cleargreen, *so* I have no personal vendettas, nor do I know any of the people except Reni, Naie, *etc.*" - obviously I added the little stars, but I don't know what she means. Why does she have no personal vendettas because she was with "them" pre-Cleargreen? Then she doesn't know ANY of the people except - and then she lists two people reasonably close to Carlos, and puts an "etc." there. Well, there could be three more, or there could be THIRTY more, and I don't know what it has to DO with anything anyway. And please don't give me any shit about "looking for *contradictions* - I am trying to answer a question that I can only answer by telling you what went thru MY mind. Then Cara lists some abuse. But she doesn't say WHO -- or at least it is not clear to ME *who* is doing this to her. And she ends by saying that her present attitude is FUCK YOU, and that she would love to "undo" THEM. Anyway, that's why I didn't question anything about Cara's post. I kind of hoped that someone who might have known what she was talking about would have responded, but no one bothered.

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Re: Cara, Diana Doesn't Understand Some Things
From: JG
Date: 12/18/99

I think Diana is very good at what she does. I think it is upsetting. No one on either side of the argument does it better.

She appears to me to be balanced, fresh, open minded, appreciative, never condescending, able, intelligent, nimble, likable, flexible, agile and independent in her thinking. She understands criticism. A person who most people would would like no matter what. A person who could deal with a wide variety of people on whatever level they presented themselves to her and with whatever situations without letting herself become unnescessarily entangled.

I don't know but I get the feeling she has never been a member of a cult or "weird group" of any kind or experienced any of the unfortunate feeling of dependence that others have who rightfully or not are furious with Castaneda.

I believe she said likes and appreciaties Carlos Castaneda writings. I have not heard that she has defended him, just asked for some concrete precise information from others who have made claims that he is (what sounds like) a sometimes evil character.

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Re: Cara, Diana Doesn't Understand Some Things
From: JG from Left Field
Date: 12/20/99

Corey Wrote * Your posts do seem to come variously from left field, however, and it is hard to put together any kind of coherent personality for the writer behind them. I'm sure you think that's a good thing, so take it as a compliment if you will.*

If you think so, it must be true. I have taken your comments as an omen. I know you are an expert. An omenlologist of the first order. Thatís why I have correctly interpreted your omen in much the same way you have interpreted Castaneda and I have decided to write this on a borrowed laptop from left field in Cubs Park in Chicago. Power brought me here. I have snuck in to the park. It is 2 a.m. and very cold here on the wet snowy outfield grass, but I am determined. I want to get what I have to say from left field just right. I have brought a mitt with meÖjust in caseÖyou know?a baseball blue scout shows up or something. I have entered into a silent state and can hear the voice of Rudy Stortz, a left fielder who once played for the Cubs in 1953. He played in only one game as a professional, dropping all 3 fly balls hit to him. The last flyball hit him in the head and ended his playing career. Rudy has instructed me to write the following. So please donít be mad at me because itís not me writing it. Itís Rudy ? Not me... Blame Rudy. I mean, I think your swell. Itís Rudy you have a problem with it.Rudy says he knew Don Juan. He met him when he played winter ball in Guadalajara Mexico in 1951. Big baseball town. Anyway, Rudy says Don Juan was an avid baseball fan and a decent left fielder though " Don Juan couldnít bunt.worth a damn". "He left me stranded many a time". Rudy eventually became a sorcererís apprentice but later died in when he got a green pepper stuck in his duodenum. That makes two guys I know. He was only 28 when he crossed over to the other side with his spikes on. Rudy is very upset with you.RudyÖnot me: ( He is very judgementalÖnot like meÖIím not judgemental)Being in that Sunday workshop meant everything to you and still does. You hold on to it because it makes you feel singled out among the masses, special and unique. It is the place where you felt what you always desperately wanted to feel For the very first time you felt that you might be someone very unique. Picked out by a higher power to a position so few humans ever had an opportunity to experience. So it is understandable to me that having been jilted by the man who you would want as a lover and whose love you wanted most in the world- that you would go to all this trouble to destroy him through the destruction of ideas that he associated himself with. There is no way that you were not in love with Castaneda. Nothing else could fuel the amount of energy you have expended. That is why I suggest you leave it all behind for your own good.

Now I don't think it takes a superior capacity to see who Carlos Castaneda was. Someone off the street would walk into the workshop with 1200 people and say "Jeez these people are nuts" That's what I thought. But Castaneda canít be responsible for the people who attend his workshops. I went to a number of workshops because I was interested in the ideas. I saw the pecking order; I spoke to the Tensegrity instructors and anybody could see they had nothing going. They were defensive about talking about dreaming as Dan has said. I could tell that Taisha was senile before her time and always had been, that Florinda was "star Crazy" that Carol was soft headed, sappy, ignorant ,feeling guilty and very skittish about participating. I think they have done and can do a lot of esoteric things and they held on to whatever it is they could do (dreaming especially I suppose) as a way of assuring themselves that they had arrived at some special place. I think they had not arrived at the place they needed to. They were saying and doing too many dumb things. I always made a distinction between the ideas and those that spoke about the ideas. You cannot expect all these people to all be in sync with what they are saying. There were too many people involved for this to have an even consistent flow.Needless to say, Castaneda was on a different level intellectually and behaviorally than the "witches". He did not say things that were grossly inconsistent and stupid when I saw him speak..

Donít you think you need to understand fame and the impact it has on people. It Ďs not surprising you donít as you live in LA! That seems like a contradiction but it isnít. Your not allowed to speak badly about the stars in LA. Acting is the lowest form of art and the most highly regarded.When a famous person makes an everyday criticism, it may have 10 times the emotional impact as an "ordinary" personís criticism has on another "ordinary" person. Castaneda was famous. So when someone says he abused him or her because he said something critical I wonder if it is the fact they were criticized by the famous Carlos Castaneda. On the other hand famous people are often abusive because they get no resistance to their abuse. So it takes two people.It might feel to a Castaneda follower that upon being criticized by him within the wide swath of exposure that"star light" projects they have been rejected totally by a superior being in front of the entire universe for once and for all. They feel decimated. They feel they have been called worthless. When they are not called back for a Sunday workshop or rejected for any reason it may have tremendous emotional impact on them ---and by the way, a tremendous impact on the people who were called back. "How lucky and or significant we must be to have survived". I havenít' heard anything that he has said (as you have reported it) that sounds so utterly contemptible. But I am sure the recipients felt abused. The anger surfaced after he was gone But just because a person feels abused is not cause to assume they have actually been abused- whether it is sexual or verbal.I only defend him because he is dead and you are picking on a dead man and doing it very badly. I like his books. I like the ideas he presented. There is something there that hasnít fallen into place. Pieces and parts that arenít assembled.I donít trust people who fawn and grovel over people one day, when they are alive, and then kick them when they are dead the next.You wanted to absorb him into your system, make him disappear and then claim his ideas as your own. I think what you are doing is cowardly. I believe you are a coward.

. With people like yourself around fawning and groveling at every turn it may have been hard for him to keep in perspective who he was. I think that was a problem for him as it would for anyone famous. Poor things.

I havenít?read Kurt Vonnegut so Iím not sure what your reference is. I think he spent sometime in a hospital. If thatís your reference? Hmmm. I donít think you would want to tangle with someone like me.But I used different names because I thought it was fun to. I didnít know it was offensive to you. When you stated such, I stopped.Everything he said you took literally and as the Gospel. That would be largely your problem. You canít spend that much time with a person and not come to your own consistent definition of his nature unless you are either dumb and or unwilling to. If you had really changed and not just shifted you would not ridicule people who you designate as members of this cult. You might have compassion for them. You are now simply a member of a cult called the Anti Castaneda cult. There is no change in you and it serves your original intention and purpose; To take his ideas, absorb and modify them and them claim them as your own. Your not letting yourself be aware that this is what you are doing. Soon you will give a workshop on Omens and Dan will handle the dreaming workshop. You will eventually charge admission and may even be confronted with willing sexual partners. But because of your superior integrity you will refuse all sexual offers and just take the money. Can you answer this question: What is the difference between you and those who left the Sunday workshops because as you more or less put it "they saw through all the bs"?.Okay Rudy thatís enough itís cold and I want to go home.

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Re: Cara, Diana Doesn't Understand Some Things
From: Corey
Date: 12/21/99

JG: Wrote a lot of stuff--and obviously had a good time doing it--including the following: "So it is understandable to me that having been jilted by the man who you would want as a lover and whose love you wanted most in the world- that you would go to all this trouble to destroy him through the destruction of ideas that he associated himself with. There is no way that you were not in love with Castaneda. Nothing else could fuel the amount of energy you have expended. That is why I suggest you leave it all behind for your own good."

I hear presumptions to this effect--i.e., that I must have put up the website, etc. out of great anger and resentment, etc.--with some frequency these days. [And, BTW, I have known and talked at length with people who were Castaneda's "lovers," and I wouldn't wish that status on anyone, let alone myself.] JG and others who seem to think that that is the only possible motivation for someone to devote a lot of energy to an inquiry of this kind can maintain that or any other opinion, as far as I'm concerned. For them to opine that that is the only possible motivation for this effort does show, however, that they have a limited amount of experience (not to mention imagination) when it comes to people who have been deeply affected by a path or a teacher and who try to explore that path and those teachings to the fullest extent possible. I did so when Castaneda was alive, and his death definitely threw me (and the departure of his five closest associates, at least a few of whom I also felt very close to, was very, very upsetting), but has not deterred me from continuing those explorations.

I had been looking for a teacher, without ever thinking I was likely to find one, and exploring a number of paths and philosophies for many years before I came upon Castaneda's writings with renewed interest after Bruce Wagner's 1994 Details article. When I read The Art of Dreaming, it struck such a chord in me that I felt that I had finally found what I was looking for. My growing involvement with Castaneda changed my life in many, many ways--most, though not all, for the better. For me to walk away without examining everything involved in this particular journey--including my own attraction to it and where I went with it, as well as the veracity of the many stories Castaneda told us over the years--would be a terrible and bizarre waste, it seems to me. I have already learned a great deal--about myself; about loved ones; about the nature of charisma, narcissism and authoritarian groups; and, yes, about Castaneda and his mysterious group as well--through my inquiry of the past several months. When I have exhausted the subject after learning all that I can, I'm sure I will move on to new and greener pastures as I have done at other points in my life after completing an in-depth study. In the meantime, however, I am delighted for the gifts of insight that Spirit has brought me to date through this experience, and am most appreciative that I have been able to adjust my life and schedule to permit me to explore this material in depth.

In my experience, anger and resentment are not very sustaining energies. While I may get angry from time to time at what seem to me to be stupid acts on the part of my former acquaintances at Cleargreen (like their knocking various sincere people off the Tigre list for simply asking questions about the origin of particular Tensegrity moves), on the whole I don't bear this gang the kind of ill will that others who use this site may exhibit. I have all kinds of complex feelings about Castaneda, including gratitude and awe, as well as some horror. I feel bad for most of the gang still at Cleargreen. Some of them, in fact, I think are psychologically very weak and when, and if, they finally realize what they are doing, I think it's going to come as a crushing blow. Those that basically turned their entire lives over to Castaneda--letting him make all their decisions for them--*must* keep this enterprise going for as long as they can, since their entire sense of self is staked on it. When people ask me about filing lawsuits against them, I try to point out to them the human side of this drama, and the need to have compassion for a group of people who were so trained to not trust themselves anymore, and to believe such a line of hokum from their leader, that they hardly have any psychological base on which to stand on their own anymore. A couple of the Cleargreeners (actually, only two) I can even imagine being friends with again, someday, when they are no longer involved with this affair, but if and when that happens seems a very, very distant point in the future.

In the meantime, my inquiry is primarily for me and is one that I would be engaged in regardless of anything that anyone else said or did. Since, on the list I set up at the end of last year, that inquiry seems to have touched others and empowered them to trust themselves and their own reactions to things again, I felt moved to make some of the information more public through this website. If it continues to appear that having this site and forum available is of help to others, it will remain open. If it appears otherwise, it will disappear. My journey for awareness will continue, however, in one form or other, and I remain deeply grateful for the increased awareness that has come to me as a result of my journey with and beyond Castaneda.

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Re: Cara, Diana Doesn't Understand Some Things
From:
Date: 12/21/99

Mr. Donovan, You don't want to explore any path,you have already made up your mind. If you were still exploring, how could you say what you say about the people at cleargreen? You don't think you could be friends with them for quite a while after they realize that have been duped. What a concept for one who still professes to be open! Statements like that show that for you the case is closed, and you only want to research finding dirt on those you claim you have learned so much from. If your life was truly improved by these people as you say, why the vendetta? As someone alrady stated, the fact that you have peppered your explorations and chronologies with your snide remarks and so called comic relief shows that you have only sarcasm and snide remarks for the people you owe so much to. You were a passionate TB and now you are a passionate BF. If Carlos was to show up in your dreaming one night, could you look into his eyes with pride over what you have done? I think he would spit in your face. This path you have chosen has no heart in my book.

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Re: Cara, Diana Doesn't Understand Some Things
From: Corey Donovan
Date: 12/21/99

Yet another anonymous poster (what bravery and warriorship you guys, to attack without having the guts to identify yourself in any way): accuses: >>>>Mr. Donovan, You don't want to explore any path,you have already made up your mind. If you were still exploring, how could you say what you say about the people at cleargreen? You don't think you could be friends with them for quite a while after they realize that have been duped.<<<<

Hardly what I said--no wonder you are so confused. I couldn't be friends with them now while they are misleading others (and themselves, presumably) about any number of things. I think (as I indicated above) that they themselves are misled to a large extent, but to be holding workshops where they teach movements that Castaneda never saw, when they continue to say that the "Witches" are still around directing things when no one has heard from the missing five in 20 months, and when they continue to mislead and obfuscate regarding Castaneda's death, let alone regarding all kinds of minor issues--this is not activity I can support or be silent about. I have done all I can in trying to communicate with them. I think this period in which they try, at all costs, to maintain the creaky myth is likely to continue for some time to come. When (and if) they wake up and want to stop dissembling in their lives and get in touch with their true natures again, then we may have a renewed basis for friendship. I can't have a real relationship, however, with people who show they have no sense of integrity. What would be the point?

>>>>What a concept for one who still professes to be open!<<<<

Well, I'm open to a lot of things, but not outright lying, obfuscation and refusing to answer legitimate questions of the sort that Cleargreen has been faced with over the past year. What I was trying to say above is that I have sympathy for those whose psychology is so fragile--having given all their authority to someone who took real advantage of them--that they cannot yet face the truth of what they are doing. That doesn't mean I'm open to being lied to myself.

>>>> If your life was truly improved by these people as you say, why the vendetta?<<<<

You are characterizing the inquiry as a vendetta, apparently because you can't imagine looking into something in depth except as part of a vendetta. That's your problem, not mine. Yes, my life is different, and in some ways better, largely because I have tried to use the whole experience to help me increase my awareness and learn more about myself and others. Castaneda's philosophies--even if he himself did not follow them (e.g., about not complaining and being a poor baby--the guy was the biggest complainer you would ever want to meet in your life) helped to get my attention for some useful approaches to life (and to some lousy ones, and I've personally had to weed through them to find what works for me, of course). As far as "these people," however, I think it is safe to say that I've already done a lot more for the others--besides Castaneda--than they have ever done for me. I could go into details, but what's the point?

>>>>You were a passionate TB and now you are a passionate BF. If Carlos was to show up in your dreaming one night, could you look into his eyes with pride over what you have done? I think he would spit in your face.<<<<<

I have had many lucid dreams involving Castaneda and the others over the past two years. So, what's your point? I have acted consistently with my sense of integrity. What's more, Castaneda constantly told us not to keep secrets, and blasted people that he saw as lying about their supposed secret knowledge and selling techniques that they had simply made up. I'm sure that if he hadn't founded Cleargreen, he would have attacked them like a sonofabitch. What's more, I would be happy to confront Castaneda or any of the Witches with their behavior and their own words if the opportunity ever presented itself.

[BTW, "passionate BF" is an oxymoron, not to mention "cultspeak".]

>>>>This path you have chosen has no heart in my book.<<<<

Your book is obviously very limited. Maybe you want to get an unabridged version, or learn a little bit more about paths that not only have "heart" but integrity. Heck, maybe you just want to start thinking for yourself a little bit instead of simply swallowing the Cleargreen party line about people who attack what they say as not being on a "path with a heart."

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Re: Cara, Diana Doesn't Understand Some ThingsFrom:
Date: 12/21/99
Mr. Donovan says:

Yet another anonymous poster (what bravery and warriorship you guys, to attack without having the guts to identify yourself in any way): accuses: >>>>

I have decided that it is senseless to use a name when you seem to continue to insult posters by assuming that they are other than who they say. Since you use an alias, why do you have a problem? If I said my name was Bobby would it have made a real difference in the meaning you take from my post?

Mr. Donovan said in his original post: "... a group of people who were so trained to not trust themselves anymore, and to believe such a line of hokum from their leader..snip...I can even imagine being friends with again, someday, when they are no longer involved with this affair, but if and when that happens seems a very, very distant point in the future."

I wrote in response to that: how could you say what you say about the people at cleargreen? You don't think you could be friends with them for quite a while after they realize that have been duped"

To which Mr. Donovanr responded: " Hardly what I said--no wonder you are so confused. I couldn't be friends with them now while they are misleading others (and themselves, presumably) about any number of things.":

Now that you can see in front of you what you wrote ORIGINALLY and what I wrote in response, are things more clear to you? I stated that you had stated that you didn't think you could be friends with them until after they realize they have been duped. My point was that you are already certain your friends have been duped. Yet you say you are open.

You see, Mr. Donovan, to me you seem to choose your words out of convenience.You go on about the cult babble, and the overuse of such terms as" warrior's way" or:" path with heart", until it suits your pupose to remind the "TB's" that they should behave better here out of respect for both.

You couldn't be friends with these people because they teach movements that Castaneda has never even seen, you say. What difference could that possibly make to you when you have announced that the whole of tensegrity movement is a fraud? How do you know "the five" have not been heard from? Cleargreen claims to have heard from them. If they say they have heard from them, does you calling them liars make it a fact that the five have not been heard from? You have posts here indicating Carol is running the whole show, or Nyei is TModerator. So, have they or have they not been heard from?

As far as the death of Castaneda is concerned, were you there? If you were truly open, you would not make these kinds of assumtions with a true sense of integrity with out true first hand knowledge of these events.

Mr. Donovan writes: "Your book is obviously very limited. Maybe you want to get an unabridged version, or learn a little bit more about paths that not only have "heart" but integrity". And: "You are characterizing the inquiry as a vendetta, apparently because you can't imagine looking into something in depth except as part of a vendetta. That's your problem, not mine. "

Replica Watches  Replica Watches

If you had any integrity, you would go thru your site and remove all the sarcasm that gives away your true intent. You can not claim to be searching for truth, objective or unbiased and pepper your "research" with sarcastic remarks at every turn. As a lawyer you should be aware that this is a travesty..

In stating that Castaneda was a complainer, I believe Badger asked how you had expected that Castaneda would go about shaking you all out of your complacency. In reading of Castaneda's adventures with Don Juan, what did you expect to encounter in your dealings with Castaneda? How many times were "apprentices" put into positions where their lives were at risk? Wasn't the first tenet that one should come to knowledge prepared to die? Apparently you in the Sunday Classes did not even come prepared to be inconvenienced or annoyed. With that attitude, I don't know what you could ever have "seen". And so it does not surprise me now, that you cannot see that you are not approaching your research with an open mind. One would have hoped that at least you would have come away with enough knowledge about the force of intent to realize that if your intent is to find evidence showing that Castaneda was a fraud, your tendency will be to overlook anything pointing in the opposite direction. Can you at least begin to see that your attitude about Castaneda, your lack of objectivity, and the intense emotions you feel will affect how you see the evidence you are trying to gather. Your emotions will bias you, and that bias will not lead you to the TRUTH.

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Re: Cara, Diana Doesn't Understand Some Things
From: Corey Donovan
Date: 12/23/99

Someone who lacks the guts to sign him or herself responded: >>>>I have decided that it is senseless to use a name when you seem to continue to insult posters by assuming that they are other than who they say. <<<<

Right--I'm sure that's your motivation. So let me give you a reason to sign a name to your posts. Signed posts indicate that someone stands behind what they've written--that they cared enough about what they said to attach a name to it (doesn't have to be your legal name, but some consistent identifier would be appreciated). If not, if you don't care about what you post enough to claim it in that way, why should anyone else read or bother about it?

If you are avoiding identifiers because you have an idiosyncratic interpretation of Castaneda's injunction about "erasing personal history"--Castaneda's label for the way he acted for at least a decade before he supposedly met don Juan, let alone a very convenient way of trying to hide his tracks while he invented the stories that he claimed he never invented--then use a "dreaming" name or something.

Of course, there's not much I can do to enforce this minimal request, but here are two things that, in the future, will be consequences of not signing one's post: (1) such posts will not be included in the archives for this page, and (2) such posts will be my absolute last priority to respond to.

The anonymous entity continued: >>>> Mr. Donovan said in his original post: "... a group of people who were so trained to not trust themselves anymore, and to believe such a line of hokum from their leader..snip...I can even imagine being friends with again, someday, when they are no longer involved with this affair, but if and when that happens seems a very, very distant point in the future." I wrote in response to that: how could you say what you say about the people at cleargreen? You don't think you could be friends with them for quite a while after they realize that have been duped"<<<<

I respond: Now that you've repeated my original statement again, can you see that it doesn't say what you characterized it as saying? I said that I couldn't be friends with them while they are still involved with an enterprise that is making up false stories, avoiding legitimate questions and obfuscating. I didn't say that we couldn't be friends "for quite awhile after they realize that [they] have been duped." But as you continue, you finally explain what your problem with my statement was:

Anonymous entity: >>>>To which Mr. Donovanr responded: " Hardly what I said--no wonder you are so confused. I couldn't be friends with them now while they are misleading others (and themselves, presumably) about any number of things.": Now that you can see in front of you what you wrote ORIGINALLY and what I wrote in response, are things more clear to you? I stated that you had stated that you didn't think you could be friends with them until after they realize they have been duped. My point was that you are already certain your friends have been duped. Yet you say you are open.<<<<

I respond: Okay, you didn't explain this before, but now you are saying that your problem with what I said is that it indicates that I have already concluded that they have been duped. You apparently think that by having any opinions at all, I have rendered myself incapable of being objective with respect to facts. That may be an incapacity that you have, but it is not my issue. I remain open to any and all facts, and have a long history of rectifying my position and, indeed, apologizing, if new facts show that my previous conclusions were in error.

If I had no hypotheses or ability to reach tentative conclusions, however, I don't think I would be a terribly useful investigator. One needs to be able to prioritize leads and areas of exploration, and one needs to be able to weigh the value of different types of information as one proceeds. So I plead guilty to having opinions, and to coming to tentative conclusions. I am not quick to conclusions, and I am careful to look at all the available and credible evidence before coming to a conclusion. I also remain open to new evidence. If you have a problem with that, I suggest you deal with it.

Anon entity also demands: >>>>How do you know "the five" have not been heard from? Cleargreen claims to have heard from them. If they say they have heard from them, does you calling them liars make it a fact that the five have not been heard from? You have posts here indicating Carol is running the whole show, or Nyei is TModerator. So, have they or have they not been heard from?<<<<

I respond: First, I repeat: this is the last time I will respond to a question from someone who doesn't sign their posts, as I hope I made clear above. Those who haven't the courage of their convictions to even identify themselves in some way are now on notice.

I'm not sure what Cleargreen is claiming right now about having heard from the missing women. They claimed at a couple workshops that they had P.O. Boxes from which they might get messages from the missing, but then they included Carol among the "Witches" who were communicating with them in that way. Carol is *not* missing--I know exactly where she lives and could put up pictures of her apartment here if I were just out to give her a hard time. The other women (four of whom I had telephone numbers for) all moved out of their homes, and headed east when Castaneda died. All of their telephones were disconnected, and they have not been in contact with anyone who used to be in contact with them whose word I have any reason to trust (e.g., Carol's word is not trustworthy, for a whole host of reasons). The one who had an ongoing, Castaneda-approved relationship with her elderly parents has not been in touch with them now (including no Xmas or birthday gifts, as she used to send them) for over 20 months. And basic social security number scans on three of them show no addresses and no activity for that period of time. Since Castaneda used to talk a lot about suicide in the Sunday sessions in a positive way, and since Florinda was known to have talked about prior plans to commit suicide in a way that their bodies could not be found if they "couldn't make it," and since Kylie publicly talked about "facing the wall to die" at a couple of early workshops--it is a practical conclusion based on the admittedly limited facts available to date that one or more of these women actually killed themselves. When we have more real facts on this question, we will make them available.

I don't know that Nyei is TModerator, but the language and reasoning of TModerator on Tigre is very similar to hers (e.g., heavy reliance on tautologies, quotes from the later books, and bullshit terminology like "personal taxonomy"). TModerator remains anonymous--kind of like you, that way--but many suspect they are someone high up in the Cleargreen hierarchy. An easy way for them to avoid this natural presumption is to identify themselves, but they choose not to do so. So that's where we're at.

Anonymous continues: >>>>As far as the death of Castaneda is concerned, were you there? If you were truly open, you would not make these kinds of assumtions with a true sense of integrity with out true first hand knowledge of these events.<<<<

I respond: I was not on hand when Mr. Castaneda expired. Not even his doctor was actually on hand for that moment, she claims, although she certified the fact and cause of death. I remain open to any credible facts regarding that death, but all facts available at this point do not support Cleargreen's statement that he "left the world the same way that [he claimed] his teacher, don Juan Matus did: with full awareness." And I think I have already addressed the question of how someone can come to certain necessary conclusions and still have objectivity and openness to new information.

Anonymous also opines: >>>>If you had any integrity, you would go thru your site and remove all the sarcasm that gives away your true intent. You can not claim to be searching for truth, objective or unbiased and pepper your "research" with sarcastic remarks at every turn. As a lawyer you should be aware that this is a travesty.<<<<

If you can find a sarcastic statement of mine in the chronologies that is not supported by the facts therein described, I'll be happy to take a look at it and remove it. I tried to keep editorial comment to a minimum in those pieces, but there were some places where it was hard to resist, and where it seemed necessary to draw readers' attention to certain points that might otherwise be missed. As far as removing anyone else's sarcastic or emotional comments from the site, I think I'll pass on your request. I think people are entitled to their emotional reactions to this material and to the experience they lived through, and for me to remove all such material in order to meet your extreme and unrealistic standards for "objectivity" would be the real travesty, IMHO.

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An Explanation
From: Cara
Date: 12/19/99

In response to Linda's post that responded to Diana's post regarding my post, perhaps I can clarify the issues you have mentioned.

I do post on the SA "private list" and that is where the excerpt from "Real Abuse from CC & Co" came from. It was in response to a post about current events at Tigre that prompted me to write a statement of my thoughts about such. The topic was about the current set of rules and moderation at Tigre, which is supposed to be unmoderated, but has a policy that actually prevents it from being an open forum in which to air one's thoughts, and beliefs. This type of control and the vague dogmatic party line that supports it prompted me to write the post and declare that it is in line with the nonsensical controlled atmosphere I experienced during my time with CC & Co.

I was a part of CC's group before Cleargreen was formed, so in saying that I have no personal vendettas with most of the people at Cleargreen, it is because I never have met them - they came after I left. While in the group, it consisted originally (when I joined) of about 40 people, it was soon reduced to about 14. This is why I mention people close to CC because it was an inner core group.

During my time with them I experienced abuse such as I mentioned in the post. I came to resent this type of "mind fuck" atmosphere because it was one of control and abuse. The rules changed without notice, one could be penalized, humiliated for breaking rules you were never informed of in the first place. And I was certainly not the only one subject to abuse. It was always directed toward the women, though. The group consisted mostly of women; this was before CC started "collecting" men.

The people who directed this type of abuse at me and at others were not only CC but "Carol", Reni, Naie, the "Blue Scout", Zaia. Florinda was the only one who never went along with the group ostracizations, and I loved her for this. Taisha seemed to be in her own world and didn't really seek to abuse either.

It is hellish to give over ones power, identity and loyalty to a group of people who conduct themselves this way. It was a case of "The emporer has new/no clothes" as far as I went along with the program and slowly ( as through the months [weeks, days, hours of immersion] I had an opportunity to observe their habits and patterns) it dawned on me that CC & Co. were making it up as they went along according to their whims.

I hope this has answered your questions, but I have a feeling that it will only bring up more. I have nothing to prove, but for the record, I actually did have this experience and in the process came to realize that the man I adored through books and dreams in reality was an ordinary man in many ways, a terribly distraught, dangerous and fearful man in others, and at times, a charming, warm, and intelligent man who gave me much laughter.

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Re: An Explanation
From: Leonard Zimmerman
Date: 12/19/99

Cara wrote:

>>The people who directed this type of abuse at me and at others were not only CC but "Carol", Reni, Naie, the "Blue Scout", Zaia. Florinda was the only one who never went along with the group ostracizations, and I loved her for this. Taisha seemed to be in her own world and didn't really seek to abuse either.>>

I'm really glad that Florinda and Taisha did not direct abuse towards you. I hope that this is the case with other people also. It makes it easier for me to forgive them, even though they were responsible for bringing women in as "presents" for Castaneda. I hope that they will be the ones who return to clear up the lies and damage that their role in this little charade has caused.

As for the others, I hope that they will at least offer an apology to those they abused. I also hope that they will offer reparations to those who lost time from their jobs and who went through counseling and healing sessions.

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Re: An Explanation
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 12/20/99

It's interesting that you said Florinda and Taisha didn't participate heavily in the abuse. They are also the ones that left when Carlos died, even trying to get Carol Tiggs to leave. But as a participator in the abuse Carol stuck around, obviously liking the position of control.

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Re: An Explanation
From: Cara
Date: 12/20/99

It is true that Florinda and Taisha did not participate in the group ostracization that occured at times (when directed towards me at least). They did take part in the "seduction" by giving me shoes (two pairs!) a cosmetics bag (Christian Dior!) and once Florinda whicked me away to the movies to see "The Summer House" - and invited me to raid the candy counter with her...

My impressions of Carol were that her cattiness was a cover for her own insecurities. Early on I surmised that she did not have the "powers" attributed to her. Sure, she's very intelligent and talented, yet her personality revealed an emotional dis-ease with herself. I applaud her for going against the agreement to leave. She impressed me as having a lot of resentment towards CC and I suppose this was her ultimate revenge.

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Perhaps
From: Maybe
Date: 12/18/99

You guys definitely have some kind of hang-up. But first, thanks for the website, information and your relentless search. It's appreciated, as is your honesty in dealing with these issues.

You've discounted any authenticity to Carlos' apprenticeship, but I'm not sure why. Daniel seems to think Carlos did learn to 'alter his perception' and had a 'powerful mind' and would like to know how. I take his opinion seriously since you've all had numerous hours of exposure to him and his presentations.

Why couldn't his apprenticeship, or some form of it, have been real? We don't have to accept all of it, maybe half was fiction, maybe half of most of the stories were fiction, maybe just a little bit of some small percentage of the encounters was based loosely on the truth. But maybe there is some form of 'knowledge' and tradition that comes from 'ancient mexico'. I can't believe (find it hard to believe) that all this came from his personal meanderings or cognitive insight after ingesting datura, especially after reading some of his later writings where he weakly attempts to speak in philosophical terms (I'm referring to those little newsletters).

What seems possible to me is that he had authentic experiences with a somewhat secret tradition in Mexico (as crazy as that sounds) and related or perhaps elaborated on those experiences. In that case it would still be exciting to find something in there that's true. Maybe what we have in Carlos is the best and the worst, a real sorcerer with exquisite and uncanny knowledge and an indulgent, undisciplined westerner who couldn't handle it. That seems to fit the bill, doesn't it?

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Re: Perhaps
From: ixtlan@eleutheria.com
Date: 12/19/99

A balance of fiction and non-fiction seems to be lost as his writings were proceeding. Too much philosophical terms after no.4.

Roughly lineage of warrior depend on Christian thought like sin or repentence, and true Christianity that Gourdjeff would call surfaced more and more. Such as recapitulation (Gourdjeff took it as praying). Where is his originality that would connect with ancient sorcerer of Mexique ?

Assemblage point ? Does anyone know where this idea comes ?

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Re: Perhaps
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 12/19/99

Remote Name: 209.19.108.33
>Why couldn't his apprenticeship, or some form of it, have been real?

I was thinking like this at first, my idea was that maybe he became a sorcerer before he came to this country.

But it's hard to find time for that to have happened. People who knew Carlos at various stages of his life have made that seem unlikely to me. For instance, someone who's father hung out with Carlos in his early years of his apprentice with don Juan said that Carlos was with him constantly, and no way had time to take off for the desert.

>I can't believe (find it hard to believe) that all this came from his personal meanderings or cognitive insight after ingesting datura, especially after reading some of his later writings where he weakly attempts to speak in philosophical terms (I'm referring to those little newsletters).

There's a deffinate connection between what happens when you become silent, or do dreaming, and mental illness. Maybe we're all noticing Carlos' "genius" and it's really schizophrenia, or something else common to mentally ill people. That isn't so outlandish. Many cult leaders who have visions are mentally ill, it's really obvious to anyone on the outside. Carlos was just super articulate, so the idea doesn't seem as plausable.

>What seems possible to me is that he had authentic experiences with a somewhat secret tradition in Mexico (as crazy as that sounds) and related or perhaps elaborated on those experiences.

But he might have gotten it all from books and a very little field research. In fact, we saw him do exactly that over the years, adding to his teachings things he saw in museums, on TV, or heard about in the news. It's reasonable to assume he was doing exactly that for nearly 40 years, building up his concept based on input from the environment.

Or maybe he really learned from someone. In that case, lets find that person!

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Re: Perhaps
From: trixie
Date: 12/20/99

well what about old florinda? if she existed doesn't she offer some credibility to the lineage? dan, you said howard knew her. what gives amigo? or am i making this up????

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Re: Perhaps
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 12/21/99

Howard knew "of" her. Carlos presented him with a gift from old Florinda. So you decide. Did she exist? Carlos and the witches love to give people jewelry as part of the indoctrination program. They deffinately wanted to add Howard to their group, they said so.

But Howard said he never met old flo.

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Matrix, magic tricks
From: Trixie
Date: 12/19/99

Does anyone have any information on Dark City or The Matrix re: their connection with the CC group? And does anyone know where bruce wagner stands now? He seemed like a pretty canny guy. Is he on to their deceit - or still in matrimonial bliss? That is, is he in on the joke or unwittingly promulgating the lie?

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Re: Matrix, magic tricks
From:
Date: 12/19/99

Bruce Wagner gave a short lecture in San Diego workshop last august.

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Re: Matrix, magic tricks
From: Linda Zoontjens
Date: 12/19/99

Okay.

Anyway, I think that they were brainwashed too. I think I remember Corey saying that Bruce looked genuinely shocked when he gave him the news about Carol Tiggs whereabouts when she was supposedly gone into the "Second Attention" for ten years. Also, the videotapes that Greg & Gabi took show Florinda having the elements leave the Westwood home while Carlos was ill. This indicates to me that many of the people with Cleargreen did not know what was going on, so they had to rely upon reports from Carol Tiggs and the other so called "witches". Perhaps this would explain the interview where Miles Reid told a reporter that Carlos Castaneda had left "boots and all". If they only had information supplied to them, what else could it have been.

When I saw Bruce in Pomona this February, I felt that he really was not certain what to do and was hoping for an answer when he spoke at the workshop. However, I think it would be better to just tell the truth and admit they made a mistake.

It's not like the world would end or something if they did so.

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Re: Matrix, magic tricks
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 12/21/99

There's a statue of limitations, so if anyone wants to try to get their money back the first step would be a certified letter asking for a full refund. Then the lawsuit could begin, probably in small court first. Get an expensive precedent going.

All it will take is someone with nerve and time.

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Re: Matrix, magic tricks
From: diana
Date: 12/20/99

Linda, Calixto may feel like he's "shooting fish in a barrel", and believe me, the "beating a dead horse" thing *has* moved from the back of my mind to front and center, but I thought I would try one more time to see if it is possible to clear up for myself some of things that are posted here, that, as posted, don't seem clear to me. You seem to be saying now that a lot of the people at Cleargreen did not know what was going on. Because I was not there, when you make "general" statements like "C.C. and company" or Dan says "See thru Cleargreen", and then Cara seems to be saying that the people at Cleargreen NOW are completely different people from when she was "there"...if Bruce was shocked to hear that Carol was, as you say, not away for ten years, and if people were only able to see what was "fed" to them, AND, when you yourself admit that it took you many months after "the facts" were "revealed", and seem to have had a realization that it may take some longer then others -- how can you then say that some should just "confess" that they made a "mistake" and tell the "truth"? What do you mean? diana.

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Re: Matrix, magic tricks
From: Leonard Zimmerman
Date: 12/20/99

>>You seem to be saying now that a lot of the people at Cleargreen did not know what was going on. Because I was not there, when you make "general" statements like "C.C. and company" or Dan says "See thru Cleargreen", and then Cara seems to be saying that the people at Cleargreen NOW are completely different people from when she was "there">>

When I speak of CC & Co, I am referring to Carlos Castaneda, Carol Tiggs, Taisha Ablear, Florinda Donner and Nuri Alexander. These four people are those who knew from the beginning that they were perpetuating a fraud upon the public. Cara indicates that in addition to these four individuals, she was also subjected to abusive behavior by Nyei, Reni and Zaia. It appears that Reni and Nyei are pretty much running Cleargreen now.

>>...if Bruce was shocked to hear that Carol was, as you say, not away for ten years, and if people were only able to see what was "fed" to them, AND, when you yourself admit that it took you many months after "the facts" were "revealed", and seem to have had a realization that it may take some longer then others -- how can you then say that some should just "confess" that they made a "mistake" and tell the "truth"? What do you mean?>>

I have not seen the videotapes yet. I understand that the folks at Cleargreen actually saw the videotapes last September and were shocked to see the footage of what a decrepit old man Castaneda had become. Perhaps Greg or Gabi can fill you in on their reaction better than I. In addition, both Reni and Bruce were informed last year by Corey of the information about Carol Tiggs being in acupuncture school and married when she was supposed to have been in the second attention.

They have had this information for over a year now and continue to maintain that Carol Tiggs is some magical being. Nyei told me an outright lie that it was impossible for the Blue Scout to have been born in 1957, for example. It has been too long for the denial to have continued up to this date. My feeling is that their realization should have come by now, but that it is in their interest not to disclose that they have been operating a scam. If they told the truth, the corporation and its directors would be liable for false advertising claims. This would have a monetary impact and may also mean time in jail for the directors.

My contention is so what? What is a little time in jail compared to the burden of the knowledge that they swindled people out of money and caused a lot of anguish for others? Why fucking carry this to their grave like Castaneda? When one goes, at least oneís soul should be at free.

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Re: Matrix, magic tricks
From: diana
Date: 12/20/99

Would you agree that there are "scams" and there are *SCAMS*...I mean, the people who call the little old ladies saying they have just won a fantastic stero system, and all they have to do is send in $186.00 to pay the "postage and handling" -- and then they send them out a little plastic radio...okay, those are *SCAM* artists. But considering that Carlos Castaneda has close to a forty year history of having been involved in something that is "rather abstract" to say the least...okay, I could see that if someone said the little plastic balls don't work and wanted a refund, but do you really think that Bruce is worried that someone is going to be able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Carlos Castaneda actually did NOT meet Don Juan Matus?? Or that Carlos did not get Tensegrity thru meetings with someone who claimed they were discovered thru sorcerer's navigating the second attention? I mean I am not a lawyer, but doesn't it seem farfetched to you that this could be proven in a court of law? And also, *if* Bruce...or ANY of the "directors" or Cleargreen *were* just as "duped" by Carlos, and if Carlos is now dead, would "ignorance" of the fact that Carlos "invented" this stuff himself or at least if they said that they truly believed Carlos was teaching something "worthwhile"...would a judge still be able to lock them up??diana.

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Re: Matrix, magic tricks
From: Leonard Zimmerman
Date: 12/21/99

>>Would you agree that there are "scams" and there are *SCAMS*...I mean, the people who call the little old ladies saying they have just won a fantastic stero system, and all they have to do is send in $186.00 to pay the "postage and handling" -- and then they send them out a little plastic radio...okay, those are *SCAM* artists.>>

I and many other people paid thousands of dollars and spent a great deal of time involved in the Tensegrity/Recapitulation endeavor. I was willing to do this because I believed what was written in Castanedaís, Abelarís and Donnerís books. I also believed the statements made at the workshop/seminars as well as those posted on the Cleargreen website.>>But considering that Carlos Castaneda has close to a forty year history of having been involved in something that is "rather abstract" to say the least...>>

I do not believe that Castaneda was involved with an apprenticeship with a shaman as he writes.

>>okay, I could see that if someone said the little plastic balls don't work and wanted a refund, but do you really think that Bruce is worried that someone is going to be able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Carlos Castaneda actually did NOT meet Don Juan Matus??>>

Well, he may be concerned about it if he is expecting to make films based on Castanedaís books.>>Or that Carlos did not get Tensegrity thru meetings with someone who claimed they were discovered thru sorcerer's navigating the second attention? I mean I am not a lawyer, but doesn't it seem farfetched to you that this could be proven in a court of law? And also, *if* Bruce...or ANY of the "directors" or Cleargreen *were* just as "duped" by Carlos, and if Carlos is now dead, would "ignorance" of the fact that Carlos "invented" this stuff himself or at least if they said that they truly believed Carlos was teaching something "worthwhile"...would a judge still be able to lock them up??>>

First of all, Bruce is not a director of Cleargreen. Secondly, as Corey mentions in an another post, he hopes that people will keep in mind that people involved in Cleargreen have invested their entire psyches in shoring up a bunch of lies and that we should have compassion for them. It has taken a long while for me to come around to this feeling about some of them, but there were always those within Cleargreen whom I had contact in the past with who always impressed me with their kindness and good spirits. That is why it has been so hard for me to not feel anger towards those I now know who abused that trust. But that passes too, does it not?

As far as locking anyone up? My point was meant to say, if, in the worst case scenario, that something like that would happen, that it doesnít mean the world would end.

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Waiting
From: John L.
Date: 12/19/99

Well, itís getting a little quiet around here, maybe some humor while we are waiting.Lifted (with permission) from the archives of ADC, Oct. 99. Test for Petty Tyrants by Clearhead00

Hello people, animals, and assorted entities of Shantytown! I'm new here and I just want to say that I think it's great that we can meet here to express our views and concerns on the warriors path. I think Carlos Castaneda was one of the greatest people of the century, his books have brought...

Uncle Crissy, Shantytowns resident knuckle dragger, grunts when he sees his name in post...

...so much wisdom to so many for over 30 years. There are no other works in modern times to compare. I think CC should be acknowledged as the Messenger of this century. Carlos...

Uncle Crissy squirms in chair, he can't believe it, "wait till the Boss and Calixto get a load of this moron" he says...

...not only gave us these beautiful, magical books, he also gave us Tensegrity before he left. Tensegrity for the body and spirit of all people of the world,...

Uncle Crissy, his heartbeat and respiration up, his beady little eyes glued to the monitor, says "I can't BELIEVE this shit"

...Tensegrity to bring those on "the path with heart" together. I myself have practiced for several weeks now and read about many workshops. The people at Cleargreen are doing an outstanding job of bringing this wonderful practice to all of us! Tensegrity has changed my life! I hope to go to the next workshop for sure! ( well, not the one next month, cause Iím not a girl! ha ha!)....Uncle Crissy, panting hard, mouse in one hand, rusty hatchet in the other, screams "COME HERE YOU LITTLE TWERP AND I'LL MAKE YOU A GIRL"...

...Tensegrity has changed my life in so many ways, I not only feel more aware and alive, I have much better dreams (mostly about pink bunny rabbits though). Even though Carlos is gone I'm sure his legacy will live on and grow. As more people practice tensegrity the world over the message of Carlos Castaneda's wisdom will spread across the planet! People of all ages, especially the young school children will embrace the teachings of Carlos Castaneda for what they are, a guiding light for mankind!...

Uncle Crissy screaming "AAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!" PLUNGES THE HATCHET INTO THE MONITOR AGAIN AND AGAIN...AND AGAIN!!...AND AGAIN!!!

..I just want to say how much I enjoy being here in Shantytown, and I wish each one of you sweet pink bunny dreams! ch

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warm cheeks
From: trixie
Date: 12/19/99

I have the most wonderfully unusual sensation in my cheekbones after a night fo dreaming - they are warm from the inside. In fact, it is as though most of my skull has been warmed. Anyone else experience this? It is just plain weird and oddly sensuous...

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Re: warm cheeks
From: greggabi@aol.com
Date: 12/19/99

Yeah... I get that same warmth in my cheeks, too... Oh wait... you were talking about your face...

er...

never mind...

Greg

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Re: warm cheeks
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 12/20/99

I haven't felt that, but I have felt the "taste" of electricity on the inside of my mouth, especially on the tip of my tongue, as a result of dreaming.

It's pretty nice, isn't it!

Sustained Reaction Archive Page 15