Sustained Reaction


Sustained Reaction Archive - page 1

Archive Message Index

Welcome to Discussions Page - From: Corey Donovan - Date: 9/4/99
Thanks Corey - From: aurelius@panix.com - Date: 9/5/99
Re: A way forward - From: aurelius@panix.com - Date: 9/6/99
A Response - From: J. Stender - Date: 10/18/99
Re: Repost: Major Misconception - From: Calixto - Date: 10/19/99
Re: Repost: Another Major Misconception - From: Logan - Date: 10/19/99
Finally! - From: Sentinel - Date: 10/19/99
Re: Repost: Another Major Misconception - From: Calixto - Date: 10/20/99
Oh, brother... - From: Sentinel - Date: 10/20/99
Re: Yet Another Major Misconception - From: Calixto - Date: 10/20/99
Re: Oh, brother... - From: Calixto - Date: 10/20/99
Joke's on YOU! - From: Tod von Oben - Date: 10/21/99
Re: Oh, brother... - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 10/22/99
Re: Response from Tensegrity Instructors - From: Anaid - Date: 10/23/99
Where's the reason and critical thinking? - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 10/23/99
Re: Response from Tensegrity Instructors - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 10/23/99
The Vibratory Force - From: Logan - Date: 10/23/99Where To Now, Cleargreen? - From: Louie Zowaski - Date: 10/24/99Re: The Vibratory Force - From: Daniel Lawton - Date: 10/24/99

Welcome to Discussions Page
From: Corey Donovan
Date: 9/4/99

This page is a new feature of the website.

In my experience, those of us who have been following the path laid out in Castaneda's books need quite a bit of processing time to deal with the kind of information that is made available on this website (much of it for the first time anywhere). Feel free to use this forum as a place to begin that processing -- to share reactions or questions that came up for you while reading the material here, or to give your own spin on what this all means (either for you personally, or generally, for those of us who have been greatly influenced by Castaneda's work).

Let the dialogue (and the healing, the insights and the new adventures) begin!

--Corey

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Thanks Corey
From: aurelius@panix.com
Date: 9/5/99

Comments

We seem to be "new new seers" who know there are serious problems with the DJ tradition, but cannot yet determine what to accept or reject.I believe DJ-like feats may be explainable by viewing the energy field as a quantum object, which can tunnel, etc. However, the CC-DJ corpus is so tainted with academic fraud as to be useless as a citable data source, and its acolytes remain in denial.

Have you considered demanding the independent inspection of CC’s "field notes" for authentication (as to dating)? And failing that, are there grounds to petition the Library of Congress to revoke the books? controversial "non-fiction" classification?One way forward is to compile a new index of stories, from diverse sources, across geography and historical time, etc. This is a lot of work, but folks in cultures remote from one another have a harder time faking things.

Best of luck to all.

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Re: A way forward
From: aurelius@panix.com
Date: 9/6/99

Sandy McIntosh said: [aurelius@panix.com writes: "One way forward is to compile a new index of stories, from diverse sources, across geography and historical time, etc. This is a lot of work, but folks in cultures remote from one another have a harder time faking things." This sounds like an interesting idea, but I think you need to explain it further.]

Sandy et al,

The idea that stories from different spiritual traditions have a lot in common is not new. It is the basis of Aldous Huxley’s 1944 classic "The Perennial Philosophy." It is a basic precept of spiritual "evidence" that when you collect stories from (say) Easter Island and Zoroaster, the chances that they collaborated are about zero, hence any isomorphisms will be worthy of further analysis as genuine experience. For some reason, DJ-CC held that their experiences lay forever outside any logical analysis, deterring the development of concordances. Whereas in fact they are congruent with many other experiences. My suggestion is a simple one. If we cannot use "DJ" anymore because the well is poisoned, then we can begin our own web-based compilation of stories and phenomena, which will make many of the same points as DJ, but with a far lower risk that they are fabricated for the cynical profit of some cult.

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A Response
From: J. Stender
Date: 10/18/99

As a response to Corey´s invitation to share reactions to the material here, I would like to thank the contributers very much.

I always used to be a non-fan of Castaneda´s person, probably because he was such a different creature than what I can identify with. Much the same, I guess, could be said about most of the other people described in his work. But reading through these pages, in particular the sunday-class descriptions, has changed my attitude. Here he appears to be a joker, a story-teller, a respect-less good for nothing who makes up the rules as he goes along. But I understand that he did a lot of high-quality work. A seach in the human sciences libary data base yielded an enormeous production. So what I am saying is that he had all reasons to be feeling important and yet he chose to be a joker. That I can respect and identify with.

The thing I don´t understand from these pages is the implicit assumption that Castaneda and Ladies should behave in a way that is transparant to the rest of us.

The sad and somewhat bitter approach these pages are written with. are the result of too much bullshit, I guess. Luckily, I only heard about Cleargreen one and a half year ago and have a strong distrust to them. When Castaneda was alive and writing, I didn´t even consider that it was a realistic possibility to look him up. To me, Califonia only exists as an area on the world map, an area full of mobsters, burgers and hollywood crap.

So now that Carlos is dead, probably going like a fool, and the witches appear to be bitches, I am left with exactly the same as always: a life to be lived and a death to deal with. As there aren´t no tales of succes in reaching freedom among the Castaneda material, all we are left with is the vison of total freedom. And that is fine. Thank you Carlos Castaneda.

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Re: Repost: Major Misconception
From: Calixto
Date: 10/19/99

Eidolon: "It's interesting: When I was confronted for the first time with this 'impeccable' web-page my mind was confused. There were doubts althoug all my personal experience on the warrior's way told me that all those facts are nothing when compared to the incredible impact of the knowledge transmitted by Carlos Castaneda. The night after, I became aware in dreaming, and I immediately felt an urge to do Tensegrity. So I did a strange mixture of the intent- and the Westwood-series, and it felt magical, there is no other word for it."

Our brains have the ability to model a complete world. They do it every day. And they do it every night when we dream. It is not the least bit surprising that, when it is suggested that one may arrive at "magical passes" in dreaming, one could then, if sufficiently enamored of the idea, do that. I did.

Each person can, to a large extent, create entire worlds in dreaming, worlds modeled on their own beliefs and desires. Many do. I have. But what debatable is what they are *really* doing.

This is tendency of the human mind I just described is the eternal playtoy of all gurus and religions. As they suggest, so their followers create.

"Perhaps the energy body knows that it does not matter wether Carlos met Don Juan when Bill was sitting on a bench or when Bill was saying inanities."

Perhaps what matters is if he met "don Juan" at all. Or Bill for that matter.

"Maybe the energy body doesn't care if Carlos Castaneda has chosen to have sex and to enjoy it or not."

Maybe what mattered more was the way he lied about it, and played guru games all around it.

 

"Maybe all those disappointed 'sunday school' guys hate him for this because they gave up sex and Carlos did not although he said so."

Maybe you don't understand. Personally, I didn't give up sex. I simply didn't want to. I didn't "hate" him either. But I certainly have no desire to follow him. He was just another horndog preaching celibacy, talking out of both sides of his mouth, while scoping out the chicks. In retrospect, I can recall him doing it all the time. I do that myself :-) , but I don't go around telling everyone I'm "pure" either. It was just another case of someone not practicing what they preach, that's all. And he did that ALL the time, contrary to his claim.

-Calixto

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Re: Repost: Another Major Misconception
From: Logan
Date: 10/19/99

Calixto says: "Our brains have the ability to model a complete world. They do it every day. And they do it every night when we dream. It is not the least bit surprising that, when it is suggested that one may arrive at "magical passes" in dreaming, one could then, if sufficiently enamored of the idea, do that. I did.

Each person can, to a large extent, create entire worlds in dreaming, worlds modeled on their own beliefs and desires. Many do. I have. But what debatable is what they are *really* doing. " _______

Comments: If you are going into dreams and you are absolutely positive (as you are) that the world your are in is "modeled after your own beliefs and desires) then you are Lucid Dreaming.

Lucid dreaming the projection of your own beliefs and desires in the dreaming state. The mark of a Lucid Dream is when the dreamer wakes up in a dream and realizes "Oh Hey! I am Dreaming!" If everything is happy and smiley and cool and the first thing one wants to do is FLY then you are absolutely lucid dreaming.

If you wake up in a dream and your first realization is "Holy fucking shit, I am alive in some place I have never ever been before," then you are in a heightened state of awareness. There is a clarity in this state that makes the body itself the focus of your situation. The hairs on your arm are indistinguishable from the real thing. You make a fist and feel the muscles contract. You tighten your stomach muscles and your know that this body is alive and very real. Then you do a magical pass and you know "Holy Crap! This is not My regular body at all. What is this feeling?"

This is the dreaming body. It is an actual body.

It takes a monumental effort, of a single sustained action to forge a link with an intent other than that of your own self reflection.

Logan

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Finally!
From: Sentinel
Date: 10/19/99

Finally! Someone responds to these claims of "dreaming is such a delusion. Oh, creating dreaming worlds, etc.? Oh, yeah. Been there, done that. Nothing but fantasies. There's no practical use for them."

Man, it's beyond belief seeing these inanities being tossed around in this forum with such authority!

Yeah, dreaming is nothing but delusion, but only if you do it like these"masters" (i.e. Lawton & co.). It's refreshing to see someone else that has had experiences beyond the "space cadet" variety speak up.

I can't vouch for the veracity of Logan's "dreaming", but it's interesting to me how his description of the feeling of being in one of these states matches my own experience. Prehaps it's a matter of semantics. What I call "dreaming" might well be something very different from what someone else on this forum has experienced.

As to these practices having no bearing in my dat-to-day life, what a load of bunk! Being in one of these "places" has so much pragmatic potential that anybody claiming otherwise surely hasn't been "there" (or maybe they havn't been shown what to do once they are there). I've devised enough "tests" to prove it to myself beyond doubt. The very least you get is a marvelous glimpse of the mystery of existence and a profound appreciation for the beauty of life.

Just for the record, I arrived at these experiences thru another tradition (from another part of the world). I became interested in the works of Carlos Castaneda after having experienced many of the thing he describes in his books. Things like dreaming, stopping the world, bi-location, perceiving the flow of energy, using physical movements to promote energetic reorganization, and performing tasks to dislodge the "social facade" are features I found on my path toward becoming a Tatsujin that I saw mirrored in Castaneda's writings. Some of you that claim he wrote fiction might say that these things can be found in the writings of other cultures and esoteric traditions, that may be true. However, I've yet to see these things written with such directness, ruthlessness, and unadorned with talk of love, bliss, and other such new age sweetness.

I never met the man, and have never practiced Tensegrity, so I'm not a defender or apologist for his personal behaviour with people in this "Sunday group". But it does seem odd that some of his srongest detractors describe experiences they call "dreaming" or "seeing" that don't match his descriptions and then blame him for making it all up rather than investigating whether they really have done what they claim. I'm referring in particular to Mr. Lawton, who even goes so far as to state that seeing energy is a lie because he has only managed to see some blobs or something and not the lines described by Castaneda (I wonder if he has even managed to see the inate vibrations of the things around him).

I wonder where all the diatribe in this site is going to lead anybody. There's talk of "moving forward" of trying to figure out what the "bigger picture" is . For what!? If you haven't done the most basic work, what's the point? At any rate, it's fun to see what develops.

One more thing, has it ever ocurred to these "Sunday groupies" that you've been had? And I don't mean it it in the way that you make it out to be in these pages. Rather, that a masterful guide has devised it so that you would be tripping all over your hopes, dreams, aspirations, assumptions, and delusions of grandeur. If you step on a path of self-knowledge, you can only expect that things are not going to be nice and pretty as you would like. No sitting at the feet of your "guru" being "blissed out"and gently shown the way to the Kingdom. You're going to be blasted. Your guide or teacher is not there to be your friend or your confidant, and if s /he does a good job, there are going to be times when you'll renounce everything you ever "learned" or were shown and curse the day you set foot on such a path.

Gambatte!

P.S. I hope my English is at least understandable.

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Re: Repost: Another Major Misconception
From: Calixto
Date: 10/20/99

Logan wrote:

"Lucid dreaming the projection of your own beliefs and desires in the dreaming state. The mark of a Lucid Dream is when the dreamer wakes up in a dream and realizes "Oh Hey! I am Dreaming!" If everything is happy and smiley and cool and the first thing one wants to do is FLY then you are absolutely lucid dreaming.

If you wake up in a dream and your first realization is "Holy fucking shit, I am alive in some place I have never ever been before," then you are in a heightened state of awareness. There is a clarity in this state that makes the body itself the focus of your situation. The hairs on your arm are indistinguishable from the real thing. You make a fist and feel the muscles contract. You tighten your stomach muscles and your know that this body is alive and very real. Then you do a magical pass and you know "Holy Crap! This is not My regular body at all. What is this feeling?"

This is the dreaming body. It is an actual body.

It takes a monumental effort, of a single sustained action to forge a link with an intent other than that of your own self reflection. "

*****

Those are just two different kinds of lucid dreaming. To describe yet another type, you can wake up in the world just *exactly* the way you usually are. Everything feels perfectly real, including your body, and in fact, you may believe you have merely woken up and have gotten up out of bed. But then something weird will happen to let you know you are actually dreaming, such as being 500 miles away in the blink of an eye, at which time you may well say "holy fucking shit!", but it's just another dream. Your brain KNOWS how to make things "real". It can make things SO real that it can completely fool you. It can make any "special" emotional, physical or cognitive state you can imagine. "Dreaming awake" is just another variation of the same story. You can "train" the brain to go right into it's usual REM dreaming state directly from waking. And you can tell when you do it too, because your body acquires the usual sleep paralysis, just as it normally does when you are asleep and dreaming. Sometimes you can go back and forth between the "body" you are dreaming in in the dream scene you are creating, and your perception of your quiescent, paralyzed body just lying there. Hey, "dual perception"! But it's still just a lucid dream. I've done all of the above, and I've done lots of passes in dreaming, and sure it felt "magical", just as I believed it would. So what; I could pick my nose in dreaming and have that feel "magical" if I believed it would. And sure I might see an "inorganic being" or a "flyer" or a "luminous egg" or something, just the same way the old lady down the street might see Jesus or an angel instead.

You guys all wanna be special. You're not. These days they can train the average college kid to go "out-of-body" at any decent University sleep lab. It's just another form of lucid dreaming. And Castaneda USED it, just like he used the "power" teachings of certain native cultures, the dreaming and martial arts methods of the Taoists, and anything else he could get his shameless hands on which had some element of "reality" about it, to FOOL people. And he did a really good job too.

But hear me now when I tell you, one day this dreaming stuff will all be understood, and the explanation will NOT involve a lot of mystical mumbo jumbo about "doubles" or "astral bodies" or "assemblage points".

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Oh, brother...
From: Sentinel
Date: 10/20/99

Responding to these kinds of posts can get downright boring, but since you bothered to comment, well...

No-name wrote: "Those are just two different kinds of lucid dreaming"

What a start! Again, such authority! How the hell do you KNOW!? Thru research in a "dreaming lab"? Thru studying the dreaming practices of Kabbalists or members of Mixe or Tzotzil Spider Clans? By your own practices? Or maybe you just read an interesting article on the subject? There's nothing more pathetic than seeing a proponent of Western intellectual values make such sweeping generalizations on topics they no nothing about or are just beginning to explore. Your whole comment is nothing more than a comical attempt of a brain trying to convince itself that it's the end -all be-all of existence, and that all experience stems from it (what a cozy idea).

There's more: "'Dreaming awake' is just another variation of the same story. Yada yada yada..."

Again, maybe it's just a question of semantics, but how can you be so sure that you and I are talking about the same experience? I find it hard to believe that if you were dreaming as a Tatsujin you would be promoting this pseudo-rational drivel.

And then this: "You guys all wanna be special."

Huh? Where did that come from? Sharing counter-examples to what the "masters" here spout as the dreaming gospel is supposed to mean we're special (or that we want to be)? Learning to do these things is within the reach of any human being with the desire and perhaps a few indications. And, of course, even a college student as you so aptly put it. As far as the assertions of Castaneda using lucid dreaming, Taoist and Native teachings to fool people, well, like many such claims in this site, where's your support? Just making these claims doesn't take much. Yeah, I know there's all this speculation. "He got his material from Howard Lee, or from Ramon Medina Silva, or from Oscar Ichazo, or from Stephen LeBerge, or from Frank Waters." Whatever... In the end it doesn't make a difference because if these same people later were to go to the"true source," in the end it would be the same thing. Maybe another website would spring up trying to gather the"big picture" again. It also seems like a weak ploy to dismiss Castaneda as a charlatan when discussing possibilities that he presented (although not exclusive to him). Experience first before you open your mouth denouncing this or that.

This is the clincher: "But hear me now when I tell you, one day this dreaming stuff will all be understood, and the explanation will NOT involve a lot of mystical mumbo jumbo about "doubles" or "astral bodies" or "assemblage points".

Dear Mr. No-Name, modern "science" is still trying to get used to the idea that it knows so little of the working of the human brain/mind that it might as well admit that it knows nothing. My god, why even the study of consciousness has so stumped researchers that they practically don't even "go there". They prefer to stick to more "tangible" things like the electro-chemical processes and whatnot. Now you so boldly state the above. Wow! Nice finale.

I will say that the mysteries of the human mind and body are so unfathomable that many phenomena could very well "originate" from them somehow (or at least engage them ). However, your response was nothing more than a feable attempt at trying to explain something quite vast in terms of something you apparently think you know or understand. Perhaps this makes the world a safer and more manageable place for you, but it doesn't represent your possibilities as a human.

One more thing, if you really can do what you claim try these two exersises if you will and let me know what happens.

1. While in a lucid dream, gaze at your eyes in a reflective surface (ideally a mirror). Aftrewards call out the name "trulkor" 3 times. See what happens.

2. While in a lucid dream, fall asleep while holding your hands clasped with the two pinkies protruding and touching each other. Try it with other sets of fingers protruding. But don't unclasp your hands.

Finally, since you say all this dreaming mumbo jumbo is nothing but mental illusion, how would you explain the following incident. Several years ago I was practicing some tasks in waking up the"other". In the course of the evening I managed to "anchor" my awareness in the "other". I decided to test my experience by going to see my cousins who were playing soccer in a field about 3 miles away from where "I" was. I got there, and was able to perceive everything quite clearly. I then decided to "bring down" the "other completely. So I went to where a big tree was next to the field and began using its roots to accomplish my goal. Now I was so absorbed in what I was doing that I hadn't noticed that the practice had finished and that my cousins and a friend were heading towards me. The next thing I knew, I heard a loud yell and I saw my cousins running like mad away from the tree and glancing in my direction. This commotion thru my concentration off that I woke up. A few minutes later we got a call at my house from some friends that were at the game and wanted to know were I was and if I had been at the soccer field. Apparently, my cousins and their friend had become so frightened and hysterical at seen what they described as my ghost that they had to be hospitalized for a few days (and even after that they acted a bit weired). This is all I'll say about this incident, but tell me, how would you explain THAT?

Gambatte

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Re: Yet Another Major Misconception
From: Calixto
Date: 10/20/99

Calixto:

"...it's still just a lucid dream. I've done all of the above, and I've done lots of passes in dreaming, and sure it felt "magical", just as I believed it would. So what; I could pick my nose in dreaming and have that feel "magical" if I believed it would. And sure I might see an "inorganic being" or a "flyer" or a "luminous egg" or something, just the same way the old lady down the street might see Jesus or an angel instead."

Logan:

"If you've done passes in dreaming and they felt magical then you have validated the "incredible sensation of well-being" that the passes are supposed to produce. You've found that the passes DO create a physical sensation that is incredible.

But you attribute it all to the mind and or belief and say this: "So what; I could pick my nose in dreaming and have that feel "magical" if I believed it would."

But this is just an intellectual assertion.

Have you tested your theory? Have you gone into dreaming and picked your nose with the belief that it will produce what you want it to?"

Sure I have! Well, not ... precisely that. :-)

That's right, it doesn't matter what you do. In dreaming, running can feel "magical". Swimming can feel "magical". Waving your arm in the air once like a hula dancer can feel "magical". Why not? Dreaming is taking place in your mind, so the limitations are defined by you. That's why you can do things like walk through walls. And SURE I've done those things. I used to think I was REAL cool for it too, just like you guys do.

"I would like to see a full blown pragmatic investigation into the validity of the Magical Passes by the dreamers of Sustained Action. "

And I would like to see you people wake up, and stop playing the bogus little "don Juan's way" game Castaneda cooked up. (Actually, I'm just saying that; I don't give a damn what you do... :-) )

"In conclusion we can say that another Major Misconception of the Sustained Action Members is that Reasoning, Critical Thinking and Understanding are not an important part of the Warriors Way. "

Your feeble attempts at putting words in the mouths of others are rather tiresome. Hey, lets go get some "good stuff" and make it part of the "warrior's way", okay? Okay!

-----
Re: Oh, brother...
From: Calixto
Date: 10/20/99

Calixto:

"Those are just two different kinds of lucid dreaming"

Sentinel:

"What a start! Again, such authority! How the hell do you KNOW!?"

I made that assertion, countering the ASSERTION made by the "other authorities" around here, that these experiences involve an "energy body" or "double". And there is far more actual evidence to support MY assertion.

"Thru research in a "dreaming lab"? Thru studying the dreaming practices of Kabbalists or members of Mixe or Tzotzil Spider Clans? By your own practices? Or maybe you just read an interesting article on the subject? There's nothing more pathetic than seeing a proponent of Western intellectual values make such sweeping generalizations on topics they no nothing about or are just beginning to explore. Your whole comment is nothing more than a comical attempt of a brain trying to convince itself that it's the end -all be-all of existence, and that all experience stems from it (what a cozy idea)."

That's exactly what I'd say YOUR brain is trying to convince itself of, only regarding all your own "spiritual practices".

 

"...how can you be so sure that you and I are talking about the same experience? I find it hard to believe that if you were dreaming as a Tatsujin you would be promoting this pseudo-rational drivel. "

I can see that we are definitely not having the same kind of experience. I am not am ombudlik, and have yet to experience deificistic rafamundiosis. So naturally, I would not understand. You, on the other hand, are obviously an amazingly advanced spiritual practitioner doing incredible things. Your brain could not possibly have ANYTHING to do with anything you are doing. And you'll need to state this, repeatedly, maybe 50-100 times, to make sure everyone is convinced it is certainly absolutely positively true. That you are spiritually advanced could not possibly be denied, as your spending your time arguing on some computer billboard indicates, in and of itself.

Are you an actual follower of Castaneda's teachings?

 

Calixto:

"But hear me now when I tell you, one day this dreaming stuff will all be understood, and the explanation will NOT involve a lot of mystical mumbo jumbo about "doubles" or "astral bodies" or "assemblage points". "

"Dear Mr. No-Name, modern "science" is still trying to get used to the idea that it knows so little of the working of the human brain/mind that it might as well admit that it knows nothing."

That's why my assertion contained the words "one day", there ... uh, genius (you don't seem to comprehend that we are just exchanging assertions here, and I set out to do that knowingly, so...). Actually, the things science knows about the brain are already beginning to come together rather nicely. I don't think it will be more than another century before we really start getting to "the big picture" there ... and quite "scientifically".

 

  Replica Watches  Replica Watches

Divine supplicant of Trulkor:

"One more thing, if you really can do what you claim try these two exersises if you will and let me know what happens.

1. While in a lucid dream, gaze at your eyes in a reflective surface (ideally a mirror). Aftrewards call out the name "trulkor" 3 times. See what happens.

2. While in a lucid dream, fall asleep while holding your hands clasped with the two pinkies protruding and touching each other. Try it with other sets of fingers protruding. But don't unclasp your hands. "

Oh yeah, I'll get right on it, master. :-)

 

"Finally, since you say all this dreaming mumbo jumbo is nothing but mental illusion,"

Actually, I don't say it quite like that. It's more like I hold Castaneda's explanations of such phenomena to be substanceless. And I am pretty sure (and actual experimental evidence backs me up) that at least 99% of the experiences people commonly fervently believe to be "out of body" or "astral travel" are in truth just another kind of lucid dream.

"how would you explain the following incident. Several years ago I was practicing some tasks in waking up the"other". In the course of the evening I managed to "anchor" my awareness in the "other". I decided to test my experience by going to see my cousins who were playing soccer in a field about 3 miles away from where "I" was. I got there, and was able to perceive everything quite clearly. I then decided to "bring down" the "other completely. So I went to where a big tree was next to the field and began using its roots to accomplish my goal. Now I was so absorbed in what I was doing that I hadn't noticed that the practice had finished and that my cousins and a friend were heading towards me. The next thing I knew, I heard a loud yell and I saw my cousins running like mad away from the tree and glancing in my direction. This commotion thru my concentration off that I woke up. A few minutes later we got a call at my house from some friends that were at the game and wanted to know were I was and if I had been at the soccer field. Apparently, my cousins and their friend had become so frightened and hysterical at seen what they described as my ghost that they had to be hospitalized for a few days (and even after that they acted a bit weired). This is all I'll say about this incident, but tell me, how would you explain THAT?

Gambatte"

I would explain that by saying that you are no doubt in the process of becoming a mighty sorcerer like "don Juan Matus". What an incredible fellow art thou! How amazing art thine anecdotes! I'm sure we should all do Tensegrity now. Liver cancer is up there around the bend...

Actually, that story is patently ridiculous. They had to be *hospitalized* because they believed they saw a friend's "ghost"? What a bunch of weenies. LOL. That's a great story. Great for a laugh, that is. The thing that is REALLY interesting to me is that in spite of there having existed literally thousands of such "anecdotes" over the years (many no doubt coming from "enlightened masters" who have no doubt by now ascended to other worlds), not ONE single person has ever succeeded in documenting such alleged phenomena in a fashion convincing to some stodgy scientist type. I mean, if people can really travel in space-time in the blink of an eye, then WHY has not one single "master" ever just settled it, by doing it under controlled conditions?

The simplest explanation, unfortunately, is that all such anecdotes are exaggerations of some kind, or involve some form of "cueing" or self-deception, (the brain creating what it wants to believe, of which it is so very, very capable).

-----
Joke's on YOU!
From: Tod von Oben
Date: 10/21/99

Here's another entry from the Joke's on You (Sunday class) Collection:

Excerpt from "Heart of the Serpent" by Luis de la Lama. Chapter 3.

"During the physical meetings with Carlos (Castaneda) I made it very clear to him that I had decided to cut with everything and go in search of total freedom. In the next weeks Carlos called me on the phone several times, telling me things such as: "You are the best of the group... The witches and I like you a lot... You are ready." When I inquired about the other members of the group who met with him, he aswered that they were not ready, not even Ramon. (Later I found out he was playing the same trick on Ramon, telling him that he was the only one worthy of his attention, that I was too stuck to my Egyptian practices, and losing energy because of the relationship with my girlfriend.)"

These events apparently took place in 1981. There's more, if you care to read the book.

Here's something relating to martial arts practice among the indigenous peoples of this continent:

Taken from "Lightningbolt" by H. Storm.

"He spoke at length of his Discipline, and even made comparisons between his Discipline and Japanese Bushido. "The Battle Kachinas," said Black Stone, "had originally been part of the great temples of the Maya. At one time the Discipline had both women and men in its ranks. "Like the art of Kung Fu, the Ways of the Battle Kachina had also evolved among soldiers. The Maya Carrier-Soldiers - who were teachers and also were traders - taught of Self-Discipline and the use of all weapons of the battlefield. "However, while the Asian teachers emphasized the handsand ancient dance movements first, the Battle Kachinas were formally interested in weapons first, then the dance."

If you're really interested you should talk to Harley Swiftdeer or Hyemeyohsts Storm about this. Then decide if Castaneda invented the "Magical Passes" or copied them from Howard Lee.

I also highly recommend the book "Star Warrior" by Bill Wahlberg. It provides an interesting glimpse at the ancient practices of the shamans of Mesoamerica. It also has an excellent chapter dealing with the criticisms of Native "Traditionalists" (of which L. Zoontjens has written) and academia.

Achtung! Check your 6!

You might also want top check this out:

http://www.amug.org/~gunnie/aifaa.htm

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Re: Oh, brother...
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 10/22/99

We have all kinds of stories to tell about Carlos using dreaming to trick and manipulate people. I get from your comment that you think we're full of hot air?

Here's an example: Carlos took this girl into his westwood compound and the witches put her to recapitulating and she got bored so she snuck out. Carlos later said he kept encountering her brown energy body in dreaming and that he thought she was dead and searching for his direction. Actually she was hiding from them. He proceeded to elaborate on the story, claiming the boyfriend had murdered her and the parents wouldn't talk to him about it.

Story #2. Carlos had a hot new chick, he brought her to the sunday class with the 2 witches holding each of her arms. She looked bewildered. One evening class she was late. Carlos later told the story about how he had looked over at her spot, and a white being who used to bother him in dreaming (by staring at his dick) was standing in her place (it might have been a purple being, I'm not sure). He took this as an omen and wisked her into the group.

As it turned out, she was really good in bed, aparently she had some professional practice. She also became good at pleasing the blue scout. Coincidentally, Carlos "saw" that her energy body exactly matched the blue scout. He paired them up with weird sunglasses and put them up on stage. She rose to power incredibly fast, due to Carlos' dreaming tales, and coincidentally was also very productive sexually for both him and his lover.

There are about 20 sunday class people who can verify these stories. There are dozens more available.

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Re: Response from Tensegrity Instructors
From: Anaid
Date: 10/23/99

I wanted to respond to your next post, but somehow it didn't have the proper heading on my computer screen. Could it be possible that Don Juan originally found one nagual woman that was not right for Castaneda and THEN found "Carol Tiggs"? Maybe the woman that he described meeting at some agency where he said he kept coming back with the wrong papers for months and that ended with him inviting the woman to see a remarkable Indian dance that turned out to be Don Juan jumping over his house was NOT Carol-- and then when it turned out that Castaneda was not the nagual for the little sisters and the Genaros maybe they had to find a new nagual woman as well as a new party for Castaneda? The other thing I wanted to ask was why do you think that if Castaneda was such a phoney he actually, as you said in your stories about him that you posted here, had the woman he wanted for a sex partner *bother* to recapitulate? Wouldn't it seem more likely that he would just say listen,most of this stuff I talk about is just crap I made up to make a buck, but if you want to play along with us then you can make a buck too. Why would Carlos try to make her recapitulate? You could say that he needed for her to think he was the real thing so that he could get into her pants, but surely as soon as she heard him speak about celibacy at a workshop, if she was having sex with him AND the witches she would know he was full of shit, so why the pretense? I guess I'm trying to say that the examples you give to show that Castaneda was a rip-off are not clear cut evidence to me that Castaneda was a rip-off -- especially taking into consideration that you are dealing in areas that are KNOWN to be confusing as hell to the "tonal"...always being told that you have to have a surplus of energy to even be able to begin to "understand" some of the ideas... Then you say that you thought you could 'see' at one point but you couldn't figure out what good it was or what use you could put it to. Also you seemed really unsure about whether or not it was really "seeing", or the same seeing that Carlos did. I think one of the things Don Juan said over and over was that when you see you KNOW things without a shadow of a doubt even though you don't know how you know them. He also said that from his personal seeing he had seen that nothing mattered. But he told Castaneda that he would have to "see" for himself, and said that maybe Castaneda would "see" and see that everything matters. But that "merchant mind" stuff -- what GOOD is it, what can I USE it for, how will it improve my everyday life...I don't remember ever being told that it would do anything like improve your 'everyday' life. In fact I remember just the opposite-- being told that one should do things without lust of result -- "what you get" from the ACTION ITSELF in that moment, from the DOING of it, I thought, was supposed to be enough...I'll stop here...I mean I know that Castaneda certainly doesn't need ME to defend him and that's not my purpose even though I can see that it's starting to look like that's what I'm trying to do...I guess more than having a gesture with you I am trying to grasp how someone who really seems to have put a LOT of effort into living like a warrior has come to the conclusion that the warrior's way as described by Castaneda was in actuality a hoax or a scheme for Castaneda to make money and get laid.

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Where's the reason and critical thinking?
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 10/23/99

I keep hearing about reason, critical thinking, sobriety. But it's just not there among tensegrity practicioners.

Look at the reply from cleargreen, which ignores about 90% of the issues raised on this web site and unconvincingly answers the topic it deals with.

Or how about people clinging to these teachings, arguing they foster sobriety, but then modifying them or tossing out portions to save the whole? For instance, cleargreen is saying that if you look for trash you'll find trash. This isn't a castanedian point of view, it's more yogic or christian. Carlos taught us many times that you shouldn't look at what a man says, but at what he does. He emphasized the need to examine people's personal lives, the things they do after 9 to 5. They've tossed that out because it threatens their belief system. They've tossed out Carlos' statements that Carol was physically gone those 10 years, he even made fun of the idea they're now using as an explanation.

And look at the other examples of critical thinking we have from the followers posting here. They didn't choose to use their critical thinking to examine cleargreen's "answer". Really, it's just a concept to hide behind to say, "Leave us alone with your facts, we're playing sorcery here. You aren't a sorcerer, you're thinking is inferior".

Someone's also been posting about "dreaming experts" here, probably referring to Calixto and myself. I never claimed to be an expert, I simply stated facts. For a critical thinker, it should be no different if I came on here and factually stated I have designed more circuit boards than anyone else I've talked with, or if I stated I'd done more dreaming. It's only taken as bragging or trying to be an expert by someone who gives a damn. In otherwords, if you don't care about circuit boards you'll have no problem with the statement. Likewise with dreaming. I have scores of friends who don't give a damn about dreaming, they've never taken offense when I mention how much work I've put into it.

But people here do. Because it upsets their fantasy. I must be an egotistical quack, because I'm stating they're barking up the wrong tree. Maybe they'd actually have to face life instead of focusing hope and attention on a failing fantasy.

Does critical thinking consist of following a fantasy and ignoring contradicting facts, using reason only to protect your feelings, and ignoring lack of critical thinking and sobriety in your teachers?

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Re: Response from Tensegrity Instructors
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 10/23/99

There you go! A very well reasoned, critically thinking response. I don't care if someone is a believer or not, that's not the issue. I can see you want to believe. I would like to too. But maybe I just saw more of the inside of Carlos' teachings, and maybe I worked hard enough to see where it led. Anyway, I can't believe any more, but to hear someone humbly describe their own reasonings as to why they want to believe is really refreshing.

I don't want to shoot you down in my response because everyone here has wrestled with those questions, and even thought of those ideas. But we also compare that to the expressions we saw on the people's faces when the events were taking place. For example, I can never forget how people changed, becoming completely ego driven with a saintly look, when they were being "taken in to cleargreen". I saw my favorite fellow practicioners convert that way. You could tell even without knowing it. And the effect was pure conceipt, disguised by a false humbleness and a secret smile.

So myself, Calixto, Corey, and others, are poisoned by what we witnessed. There's no hidden fantasy for us, we saw the ugly underbelly.

And yet, I myself can't help but sometimes think, what if?...

As to your specific comments:

>Could it be possible that Don Juan originally found one nagual woman that was not right for Castaneda and THEN found "Carol Tiggs"?

We parried that idea around for a while. But apparently it isn't the case, cleargreen is sticking to the original story, which doesn't hold much water.

>The other thing I wanted to ask was why do you think that if Castaneda was such a phoney he actually, as you said in your stories about him that you posted here, had the woman he wanted for a sex partner *bother* to recapitulate?

I used to find that hard to understand too, I have to honestly tell you my failure to understand was just cult feelings keeping me hanging on. Now it seems obvious to me, but you'll have to think about it and come to your own conclusion. It was his huge, gigantic, overwhealming ego. He didn't just want to have sex with all the women, that was just his ugliness coming out. I have the same ugliness, I'd have sex with the same women if I were in his position (maybe). But he actually wanted to have a reputation for all of what he wrote having been proven true by practicioners. And he was in fact a genius. He put together a seemingly workable system, meaning that it does produce more effect than any other system I ever tried, including yoga, zen, martial arts, drugs, etc. No doubt about it. So he wanted to promote that system. Fucking the women was just a side benefit.

>But surely as soon as she heard him speak about celibacy at a workshop, if she was having sex with him AND the witches she would know he was full of shit, so why the pretense?

I could almost get angry at the women for that. In the sunday class there was a big blow up because Virginia wouldn't have sex with Carlos. They threw her out. But at the same time Carlos was making eyes at Victoria, he even took her away from her husband. And she knew it. She skillfully avoided his advances for years, sometimes "almost" being taken in to the group, but then because she avoided becoming his lover she was pushed further away.

Why didn't she tell us? Why do women keep such secrets? Why are 90% of rapes not reported? How come that dead basketball player slept with 20,000 women and the rag sheets aren't full of his one night stand women venting anger?

You tell me.

>I guess I'm trying to say that the examples you give to show that Castaneda was a rip-off are not clear cut evidence to me that Castaneda was a rip-off -- especially taking into consideration that you are dealing in areas that are KNOWN to be confusing as hell to the "tonal"...always being told that you have to have a surplus of energy to even be able to begin to "understand" some of the ideas...

That's true belief. What can I say? But as far as energy goes, it took cleargreen 1 year to get together enough "energy" to respond to the allegations. So what the heck are we talking about here? Do tensegrity practicioners get so low in energy they can't even carry on normal day to day activities?

>Then you say that you thought you could 'see' at one point but you couldn't figure out what good it was or what use you could put it to. Also you seemed really unsure about whether or not it was really "seeing", or the same seeing that Carlos did. I think one of the things Don Juan said over and over was that when you see you KNOW things without a shadow of a doubt even though you don't know how you know them.

It fit that description in every way, everything you said. Now days I have no doubt it was the same thing, my doubt at first only lasted a year, and it was because the things I was seeing didn't match Carlos' taxonomies. But neither did his books. My early seeing was like the time Carlos was in a resteraunt and saw the wings of energy peeling off the being. Sometimes it's like the time he saw the man in the windows waving and some kind of poodle. Those times I pretty much ignore it, considering it not really seeing. So I'm pretty careful about what I describe as seeing. Basically, if I don't see a completely abstract encapsulated energy shape, with a voice explaining features and myself barely realizing it's taking place, I don't count it.

And what I found is that Carlos' general descriptions are accurate, but the specific descriptions he gives, the one's you could use to manipulate people, are inaccurate. Or perhaps I should say I never saw any of those things, and the things I did see were substitutes for the things he saw, they fit into the same area, and were different everytime. I believe seeing is real, but not fixed, and not subject to classification. Carlos classified the heck out of it, then used the classifications as rewards and punishments involving members of his group. Carol Tiggs does the same even now, rewarding people by telling them she's seen their energy has risen.

>I don't remember ever being told that it would do anything like improve your 'everyday' life.

That's true. Carlos was right, seeing exists and his descriptions were pretty damned accurate. But how he used it, that was the fraud.

>I guess more than having a gesture with you I am trying to grasp how someone who really seems to have put a LOT of effort into living like a warrior has come to the conclusion that the warrior's way as described by Castaneda was in actuality a hoax or a scheme for Castaneda to make money and get laid.

I could lean either way on that one, because you're argument is sound, except for the fact that he failed to burn and got really sick and died. And within cleargreen we find drug users, alcoholics, people who bum off other people and don't pay back, people who act against what they tell others to do, and try to hide the fact, etc. So that sways me towards thinking the warrior way thing is crap. Carlos didn't do it, cleargreen doesn't do it. And I never liked it anyway, it seems like a juvenile belief system for people at odds with social situations and uncomfortable in their lives.

Of course, you could do what I did, then take the results, and force yourself to live that way. The seeing could become all important, and the dreaming could be kept up all the time. And there's the really funny thing. That's exactly what Carlos said the old sorcerers did.

But it's also a lot like what Jung did, living out his fantasies.

So to me, the only real way to solve this, since we only live about 80 years, is to see which will be better in the long run. But Carlos and group lived/live miserable lives, I've seen it with my own eyes. They're like "moonies", programmed by reverand moon to have smiles on their faces all the time, but living lives no one else would be able to stand, for the shallowness and ugliness of that world. At least that's what I saw.

By the way, Carlos never said that if you look for trash you'll find trash. That was some guru, or maybe a christian. He insisted that we HAD to examine the personal lives of people we admired, that was the real man. Once again, cleargreen is tossing out whatever threatens the whole to preserve whatever part they can. Maybe this whole discussion is pointless anyway, because Carol Tiggs is even to this day a yoga practicioner, and the women in charge of cleargreen have more heart than Carlos, so the teachings will slowly evolve into something completely different anyway. For instance, now they're saying to take up painting to expand awareness, or go learn french, or whatever. And look at the world with rosy glasses. Honor your parents. Take that yoga class.

It's a kinder, gentler teaching anyway, pretty soon Carlos' teachings will be gone.

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The Vibratory Force
From: Logan
Date: 10/23/99

Sentinel writes: I'm not sure what you mean by "vibratory force", but my preferred method of going into dreaming involves "eliciting" a sound. This particular "sound" is like a high-pitched vibration that I "hear" with my skin. Once focused on this sound, a vibration travels from my toes to the top of my head, then a sinking feeling in my abdomen, and poof!

I think I have heard the highpitched sound and it does seem to grow or get more pitch but I haven't been able to take it as far as you have. I have the tendancy to focus on it too much and it goes away. How do manage to get it to stick around?

Sentinel writes:

"Again, I don't know if that's what you mean by vibratory force."

I don't think it is the vibratory force. It does seem to be along the same lines in that we are both working with a basic sensation that can be developed to encompass the entire body in order to produce a perceptual realm.

I have experienced the vibratory force as a physical bodily sensation. It feels as if a nonspecific group or area of atoms in your body are vibrating. It moves through and spreads in a conglomeration of vibration following the contours of the body and merges with the interior of the body. It has been my experience that it is felt first in muscles of the back or side and then moves into the body cavity and its inner organs. And with familiarity and quietness it can encompass the lower legs, the arms and the head.

The vibratory force is a very pleasurable feeling. It is another "incredible sensation that provides one with the feeling of well-being." More importantly the vibratory force can serve as a basic bodily foundation of sensation that can be used to in order to produce a perceptual area of pragmatic investigation. It has been my experience that once the vibratory force has encompassed the whole body one can then stand up, open ones eyes, look around, hear things, see things and interact with an entire world of perception

The pragmatic action I used to arrive at the vibratory realm was the Not-Doing passes. I came home from a day at work, laid down and did an entire set of 12 Not-Doing passes with the interior dialogue shut off. At the end of doing the passes I felt ready for a nap and rolled over on my right side to sleep. In doing so I rolled right into the vibratory force which quickly resonated throughtout my entire body. It had never encompassed my entire body before and I just lay there enjoying the sensation. I began to think that perhaps I could use the vibration I was currently experiencing as a means to break off the supposed chunks of energy that have gathered at the periphery of the luminous cocoon. I rolled onto my back and did a couple of passes from the Masculinity series. I then realized I was able to move and not lose the vibration. I began to hear things rustling in the room but I did not get scared. I stood up and the vibratory force was still with me. I opened my eyes and the room was completely transformed. I was no longer in my room in the daily world. I was in my room in the vibratory realm. I walked around looking at a coffee table that wasn't in my room of the daily world. I looked at the posters on the coffee table and I looked at a record player that was there. I played the record and the song was utterly and uncannily familiar to me. But none of these objects nor the complete configuration of the room was as it is in the daily world. In the daily world I live in a second story apartment. In the vibratory world a lake and trees lay just outside of three huge plate glass windows that aren't there in the daily world. I walked outside of my room to visit the lake. I jumped right in and swam to the bottom and looked at the fish swimming all around me. I saw a pinpoint of light under the water just the same as I see them in the daily world and I found myself laying down in my room. The vibration was gone. I rolled over and sat up. My cognition returned to interpreting the daily world.

A Technique:

One of the easiest ways I used to get into contact with the vibratory force was a kind of Inner Silence Game I play. First I set the intent to introduce myself to the vibratory force by choosing any action and intending with each movement to meet the vibratory force. For instance, if I am making a meal I make every move count. When I reach for a fork I don't intend to reach for the fork, I intend to meet the vibratory force. When I wash a plate, grab a cup, flip the burger etc. etc., the same thing goes.

Then when the cognition is at its weakest which is just before falling asleep or just when one wakes up, I play an Inner Silence game. I take the first word of the sentence that pops into my mind and challenge myself to stop thinking after that word. Sometimes I get two or three sentences into my thoughts before I realize I was supposed to stop after the first word. After getting warmed up I get pretty good and can stop myself after the first word. And I laugh at the first word. It pops into my mind and I laugh at it out loud. "Then" LOL! "I" LOL!! "Sometimes" Hahah ha!! "After" chuckle chuckle "And" snortle snortle snortle. (these words are the first words used in this paragraph.!)

Then I just sit and wait for the next word to pop into my mind. Sometimes it never comes. What comes instead is the vibratory force. But when a thought does pop up I just laugh and laugh. Never fully indulging in the thought and the sentence and the paragrpah that follows. Just the first word and I laugh aloud to make sure that the body knows how unserious this it all is.

Logan

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Where To Now, Cleargreen?
From: Louie Zowkoski
Date: 10/24/99

It is understandable that Cleargreen feels the need to address the questions the practitioners have made in regard to the discrepancies between the chronology of Carol Tiggs and the account given in Carlos Castaneda’s books and at Cleargreen sponsored events.However, their response is not adequate given the fact that Carol Tiggs, since she was born in 1947 could have only been twelve or thirteen years old when she supposedly met Don Juan. In the chapter from the Eagle’s Gift, entitled, "The Nagual Woman," Castaneda relates that "Almost immediately after finding me [i.e., 1960?], don Juan encountered a double woman." In addition, all public statements made by Carlos Castaneda and his cohorts contend that she left with her entire physical body, not just her "dreaming body" and was "gone" for ten years. It is only after the information about her physical whereabouts became public, that Cleargreen came up with a story to explain this discrepancy.It is sad that public statements made by the Tensegrity Instructors can not reflect the truth of the matter. It would have been far better to admit that they were as surprised as the general public that Carol Tigg’s whereabouts were not revealed to them. I strongly feel as though they believed the stories as much as any of the practitioners, but were placed in an awkward position when the facts became known. Part of the reason I believe that most of them strongly held these beliefs is because Nyei Murez was in tears when she spoke of how much she loved the Blue Scout at the Omega Institute workshop/seminar in May, 1995. I don’t think those were fake tears.So now, they are faced with an irate public who, for the most part, feel that they have been duped into believing that the people on whom they modeled some of their beliefs and lifestyles have been lying to them. It seems that if they are choosing to come up with irrational explanations for known facts, that they should be taken to task. The pabulum about not being able to outsmart infinity is not acceptable.

My conjecture would be that most of them have placed themselves in positions in which, if they had known the facts that they now know, would not have allowed themselves to become part of the Cleargreen venture. I imagine that it is like coming home one day and finding a naked woman in the bed of the love of your life. Heartbreaking, especially if the love of your life insists that, "No, we weren’t having sex." and proceeds to weave some yarn about what really happened. My reaction in that scenario was to leave, because the trust was gone. That would be what I would do in the case of the Tensegrity Instructors. I keep a warm place in my heart for that man, but I realize that he would have never changed his philandering ways, no matter how much he loved me or I loved him. There is no reason why they can not do the same.However, if they do wish to continue, an accounting needs to be made. All of the misrepresentations regarding Carlos Castaneda and his cohorts should be made public. My feeling is that if anyone wishes to have their money refunded based on the fact that they have been lied to, then Cleargreen should do so. In addition, anyone who was in an abusive situation should be compensated for time lost from their jobs and for any counseling/healing sessions. If the shareholders have any integrity and feel that their freedom is at stake, then this should not be a problem. I would not be concerned about any of charges of fraud if they were willing to do this. For the most part, the practitioners are honest people and are not so vindictive as to want to see anyone imprisoned for misrepresentation. I would not want to be in the position of Carlos Castaneda, who lied about almost everything and went to his death knowing that he had abused people and made no amends. It is a burden I would not want to carry to my grave.

As for the sex scene which seems to have been a main feature in the selection of some of the instructors, my opinion is that this should be discussed in the manner in which it applies to what we have been told about celibacy and conserving energy for dreaming. I don’t think we need to be prissy here about sex, most of us are adults. What have been the effects on dreaming when the Tensegrity Instructors have engaged in lesbian, heterosexual or group sex? What about masturbation? How long did you do the passes before it was determined that you had enough energy to spare for sex? Who made that determination? I also want to know about drug and alcohol use. What drugs and how much alcohol have you been using and what have the effects been on your dreaming?On the other hand, some practitioners have had altered perceptions while engaging themselves in their attempts to become silent, both with the passes and without the passes. My recommendation is not to dress it up in "Castanedan" terminology. This business about traveling in other worlds physically would have to be verified by at least one other practitioner, using a more scientific methodology. Otherwise, it would have to come under the category of altered perception, nothing more. Protests to the contrary are not acceptable.

The same with "dreaming together". There are sleep labs in almost every major city in the United States and I am sure that if one were enterprising enough, one would be able to find a graduate student at a university with a sleep lab who would be more than willing to engage in a study of "dreaming together". In lieu of a sleep lab, perhaps certain procedures could be set up where dreamers could be given questionnaires to fill out upon awakening from sleep or from being "dreaming awake". I imagine that points of reference such as timing and perceptual similarities can be used to verify these conditions, but since I am not a scientist, I am not in a position to make those judgments.

It is my opinion that if Cleargeen wishes to make peace with an increasingly large number of practitioners who are angry about being lied to that they should take the above recommendations into consideration.

Louie

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Re: The Vibratory Force
From: Daniel Lawton
Date: 10/24/99

Here's something I posted over in the sustained action list which might explain your technique from another point of view. By the way, that sounds like a good technique to me, I don't mean to belittle it. I have lots of techniques like that which I use, but I no longer believe the technique is really the important part.

The idea is that the subconscious is an active brain, or a brain based on repeated activity. The conscious mind has the linear dialogue, we can control it consciously. But the subconscious is full of the residue of processing the conscious mind's activities. It can't be switched quickly. It changes only as a result of prolonged changes in the daily activity of our ] linear mind. I like to visualize it in computer terms. The linear mind can't process everything it does immediatly. Unprocessed items are tossed onto a hard disk in the mind, for later processing. This can take days. Whatever is still left there unprocessed is gurged up in the mind when asleep and guides the dreams.

Example: I used to blow glass for a living. I wanted to be a "glass blowing warrior", so I memorized every movement I used and went from blowing 40 objects a day (the quota) to over 200. The supervisor finally told me to cut it out, I was making everyone look bad.

During that time, every night I would have continuous dreams of spinning glass. My idea is that I spent so much attention focusing on perfecting my glass blowing movements that my subconscious was permeated with it, thus my dreams were about glass blowing.

The same happens during "seeing". When the awake mind gains abstract access the interpretations or themes associated with the abstract view are the result of things still lingering in the subconscious.

A practical use of this theory would be to realize that to get more dreaming you need to focus your linear mind on dreaming as much as possible during the day, so that as much activity oriented to get dreaming takes place as possible. Stressful activities, like gazing or trying to get silent through force, leave more unprocessed tasks for the subconscious mind. In theory, you can saturate yourself with anything and the subconscious residue will linger for days, guiding the direction of your dreaming.

This theory also explains why pro-beliefers keep insisting there's so much validity to practicing the party line. It keeps their attention constantly referencing the expected cleargreen results, this saturates their subconscious, and they get dreaming filled with Carlos' predicted inventory. Also, the more they long to be with their honored teachers the more likely it is they'll find those beings in dreaming.

And it goes a little way to explaing why people get happier when they drop those techniques. Their liner mind focuses freely on what they like and enjoy, and their dreaming tends towards things more beautiful and enjoyable to them personally.

Sustained Reaction Archive - Page 2